LOL

About these Trento Baptisim records, that I am now arbitrating..

When you index records, you can choose any records on their current list, to index.

I chose to index quite a bit of the baptisms for Trento, using the logic..that I could get, from these documents, what needed to be indexed. While I cant read an italian novel, I can get the names, dates and other important bits of info from these things.

So..now, I am arbitrating. I am comparing two of the identical sheets, looking for discrepancies and choosing which I believe to be correct, or if neither are correct, I can add what is.

What an eye opener this has been for me.

I sincerely believe that some of the people who chose to index these trento records..have absolutely no knowledge of the Italian language.

Why would someone choose to index records in a language they know nothing about?

Actually, I am getting a little chuckle out of this. The reason for my title is..depending on the year, and on the priest, the records are recorded differently.

I am sure you are all familiar with the parents section of most italian documents. Some have the fathers name, then his father, then his mother. Others have, the fathers name, only, some have the father and mother, etc. In some of these little sections, there are as many as 3-4 names.

I find some people, having the biggest problem "choosing" the surname of the mother. I say choosing, because its obvious they cant read which one it is.

Some are taking the mothers fathers first name and using it as her surname. Others are taking the last word they see written and using that for the surname..and others are taking any word, that might look like a last name..and using that. And a whole lot miss the second half of the name, when they have the = and the rest of the name is on the next line.

I have to wonder tho..just when they think they figured out what spot that surname is in...along comes a different priest, and the entire wording and whose names are included..changes.

I was a little nervous about accepting this arbitrating job...because of my limited Italian..but at least I can read enough to know whos who..lol

Anyway..I am getting a big kick out of this...and its a good thing, 3 people have to see the same sheet before they put it out there.

I am so happy that you are sharing your experiences with us. Its entertaining and informative.

So which name are you choosing...

LOL Um...I am choosing, the right name..lol

I figured I would entertain you all with this stuff. Nobody can appreciate it like the people here. I know everyone knows exactly what I am talking about, because everyone has used these records.

Just keep it coming. Struggling with records is no fun. But you do eventually learn a lot.

Thanks for all your adventures and I agree, keep em coming.

lilbees

Eleven wrote:

LOL Um...I am choosing, the right name..lol I figured I would entertain you all with this stuff. Nobody can appreciate it like the people here. I know everyone knows exactly what I am talking about, because everyone has used these records.

It is very entertaining! Since I have begun trascribing my grandfather's town I have learned so much - especially about the various names. I actually went back and redid all my original transcriptions because I found a few errors. Although overwhelmingly difficult in the beginning it is quite simple for me now. But each new town I find I have to view for family I kind of have to start over figuring out the horrible handwriting through documents that have bleed throughs, water damage and deterioration of the paper. It is a labor of love and anyone who does it has my utmost respect and admiration.

I have seen lots of those damaged documents, but oddly enough..these trento records are in very good condition. No bleed thrus..the worst I have seen is a page covered with another piece of paper with a notation. However, I didnt notice it the first time, but when it happened again, I noticed that the page was filmed twice...with and without that paper...so I guess those covered records were not lost.

I have to be honest...I am definitely NOT doing a perfect job. I am keeping a list of the surnames..not to correct spelling, because we are not supposed to do that, but for the names that have just a blob of ink for an "o" or an "a". I figure, if I keep the most used spelling, handy..I can look at it and use that vowel. The reason I say that I am not doing a perfect job..and I dont think anyone can..is because occasionally, you come across a descrepancy, that you just cant decipher without taking your best guess. Then, the next batch you get...has that same name, clear as a bell. You know you did it wrong on the last batch..but there is no way to recall that batch to fix it. I cant tell you how much this bothers me..lol

Another thing that I find, and I guess this can be said about any job..is its too bad they dont ask the workers what would help either make the job easier..or better. I see a whole lot of errors, that could have been avoided if they gave a little more specific info..especially on these foreign records.

I havent really tried to use their searches in the pilot program, but, I sure do hope it will search without having to put in an entire name. Like maybe bring up all names starting with the first couple of letters...ya know, similar to the stephen morse site. You can do searches there with just one letter...and believe me...sometimes thats what it takes..lol

Anyway, I have been doing mostly trento. Every now and then, my eyes feel like they are crossing..so I switch to something in english..lol

I only wish they posted how far into something we have gotten. I cant imagine there being a whole lot more of these baptisms to go.

Just when I thought I have seen the worst of abbreviations by these priests...I hadnt.

Dna = Domenica
Dno = Domenico

And I thought Gio Batta (Giovanni Battista) was bad?

These poor people who have to search these records...lol...if I didnt see what those who are typing domenica/domenico typed (and I have to choose against them), I would have never known what those abbreviations were. Oh..and this priest also refuses to write Maria (in the mothers name area). He just types M..and once more..if I see Maria typed out by someone...I have to choose against it and for the M.

Gio Batta is 100% Giovanni Battista.
Domenico is usually shorten in Dom.co or D.co (the same for Domenica) while D.no was usually used for Domino that's not a name but stands for Signore (mister).

Luca

Most of the other priests use domco and domca (domenico/domenica). This one priest definitely is using the Dno/Dna for those names. The first time I saw it..I was looking and looking and trying to figure out what the heck it was. I just typed what I saw...then I saw that people were typing the domenico and domenica. But, I cant choose that. I have to choose whats actually written on the document. That is really very hard to do..when you know what the names are. But, thats what they want.

Some of these priests are really bad spellers..lol A lot of the names are spelled wrong. I have a really hard type typing when they spell Mattio for Matteo. Matteo was my fathers name, and the only person in the world, that I ever knew with that name. But, I have to do what they say..so I grit my teeth and do it.

I thought that there was a name Mattio...perhaps I am thinking of Mattia. My nephews name is Matteo. I love the name.

There could be..but most that show up here are Matteo. Thats why I thought Mattio was a poor spelling priest.

I dont know if anyone realizes it..but sometimes these names change thru the years. At least in this area they have.

I have come across surnames that dont end in a vowel, years later have a vowel at the end. The name Zen changed to Zeni. Also names like Steffani (in the 1700s) became Stefani in the 18 and 1900s. I find it comical how some (probably Italian) indexers, are trying to stick a vowel at the end of everything. When I check the actual document..there is none there..lol There are a lot of non Italian surnames...but these people all seem to have italian first names, no matter what the last name is. Antonio Visintainer. Luigi Oberosler. Go figure!!

Certainly the gradual erosion of an original name must have taken place over the centuries. Of course it would become more difficult to transcribe correctly when you throw one or two (inept) Italians into the work as well

But I think that the germanic sounding surnames coupled with Italian given names could easily occur in areas like Trento which is in a 'border' Region and which even now, along with many other towns in the area, will carry two names - one Italian and the other germanic as they lay in Alto-Adige/Sudtirol as you can see....
>Adige towns< Name


The same happens in many border areas in northern Italy. Borders with Switzerland can carry Italian, Romanische or French surnames, those of Piemonte and Liguria - French. But hgere too the given names are often Italian. >Northern Borders<

Eleven wrote:

..I have a really hard type typing when they spell Mattio for Matteo. Matteo was my fathers name, and the only person in the world, that I ever knew with that name. But, I have to do what they say..so I grit my teeth and do it.

Mattio or Matthio was often used during XVII and XVIII century and is not a bad writing of the Priest and, as i already told on tardio's forum, sometimes for the male form was used even Mattia.
As Carole wrote, names had a gradual change during the years; it's a natural develop of the spoken language.

Luca

I figured the names had a lot to do with it being a border area.

Luca, I never saw those names before. Doing this work is like an education for me. I guess, the way names have changed in the US, the same thing went on in Italy. But, I type whatever they write...and when I arbitrate, I pick the one that I see written on the document..not the one that me or someone else thinks is right. I only wish they didnt abbreviate. Some of these names are so beautiful. Its a shame some priests didnt take the time to write them all out.

Carole, I was looking at your maps and the second one had me chuckle, as it reminded me of my cousin.

My cousin often goes to switzerland on business. The town he goes to is right on the italian border, and they speak italian there. He understands less italian than I do...or, should I say..he understands no italian. When people hear his last name, they speak italian, but he has to tell them..he doesnt understand.

Anyway, one of the first times he was there, he went to a restaurant. He thought he would be pretty safe..since he could say pasta..and vino..lol. So, he orders the pasta and the vino..and the waiter said something in italian..and not knowing what he said..my cousin answered yes. Well..he ended up with not a glass of wine, but a whole carafe..which of course, he just had to drink..lol

We would email, while he was away..so I kept telling him..how to say.."glass" of wine..in italian.

Now, here is a person who would really benefit by learning the language, because he has a reason to use it.