x
Toggle Content Register or Login  -  March 29, 2024, 1:06 am
Toggle Content User Info

Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: LucilleDZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 2016

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 267
Total: 267
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: My Account
02: My Account
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: My Account
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: My Account
21: My Account
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: My Account
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: My Account
31: My Account
32: Community Forums
33: My Account
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: My Account
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Statistics
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Statistics
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Stories Archive
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: My Account
62: My Account
63: My Account
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: My Account
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: My Account
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Statistics
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: My Account
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: My Account
97: Community Forums
98: My Account
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Statistics
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: My Account
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Statistics
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: My Account
115: My Account
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Statistics
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: My Account
125: Community Forums
126: My Account
127: Community Forums
128: My Account
129: My Account
130: My Account
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: My Account
146: Community Forums
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: My Account
155: My Account
156: Community Forums
157: Statistics
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: My Account
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: My Account
183: My Account
184: My Account
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: My Account
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: My Account
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: My Account
211: My Account
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: My Account
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: My Account
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: My Account
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: My Account
229: Community Forums
230: Statistics
231: Community Forums
232: My Account
233: My Account
234: Community Forums
235: Statistics
236: My Account
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: My Account
242: My Account
243: My Account
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: My Account
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: My Account
251: Community Forums
252: My Account
253: Statistics
254: Community Forums
255: News
256: My Account
257: Statistics
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: My Account
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: My Account
264: My Account
265: My Account
266: My Account
267: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Toggle Content Main Menu
Toggle Content Last Posts
Last 10 Forum Messages

bocca
Last post by tennino in General Discussion Groups on Jan 16, 2021 at 16:56:41

Towns in Frosinone that were part of former Vatican States a
Last post by Italysearcher in Central Italy on Feb 19, 2019 at 09:15:58

Dual Citizenship
Last post by Curci-Ghio in General Discussion Groups on Nov 18, 2018 at 15:30:54

Please Help Translate Letter
Last post by nuccia in Translations on Oct 20, 2018 at 06:18:43

Family in Cittanova
Last post by russojoseph1 in Translations on Oct 14, 2018 at 12:28:20

DNA Testing
Last post by nuccia in General Discussion Groups on Sep 29, 2018 at 10:39:30

Trento -Atto di Nascita - Frazione di Poia, Comune di Comano
Last post by exevans in Northern Italy on Mar 28, 2018 at 00:45:37

Translating written postcard
Last post by mekanic in Translations on Jan 18, 2018 at 13:58:50

Translating written postcard
Last post by mekanic in Translations on Jan 18, 2018 at 13:53:38

State of the Family Record & Other State Records
Last post by debbiemfit in Northern Italy on Jan 02, 2018 at 23:14:28

Toggle Content Help Support this Site
Please support GentediMareGenealogy
Help us by supporting the future development of this site, or simply to say thank you.
Toggle Content EStore
Community Forums › General › General Discussion Groups › New Type of Record

     Forum FAQ   Search   Log in to check your private messages   Login  
New Type of Record
Want to share something new or just have fun? You can do that here.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index General Discussion Groups Printer Friendly Page

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BillieDeKid
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Wow!!! That is an interesting document. Thanks for posting Luca and thanks so much for the translation Carole.

What does - begging colours - mean?

_________________
Elizabeth
Brognaturo On Line
Brognaturo Civil Records
Mangiardi, Tedeschi/Tedesco, Zangari, Coda, DeFrancesco, Ierulli, Bava, Daniele, Valente
Back to top
View user's profile
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Well thank goodness you asked that Billie... I just went back to the original worksheet I was using and I've missed a whole paragraph from the end - so that will get done tomorrow. It's 1.30 am here now.

But 'begging colours' - well that caused me soooo much trouble as the Italian says 'ò mendicato colore' and whichever way I tried that was about the best I could come up with. 'mendicato colore' is not a phrase I have ever heard - so...... Crying or Very sad

Livio or Luca are bound to know!

Oh and BTW - THIS is an arquebus


_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
BillieDeKid
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Thanks so much Carole and thanks for the photo. That's really cool. I hope Livio or Luca can let us know about "begging colors".

_________________
Elizabeth
Brognaturo On Line
Brognaturo Civil Records
Mangiardi, Tedeschi/Tedesco, Zangari, Coda, DeFrancesco, Ierulli, Bava, Daniele, Valente
Back to top
View user's profile
Luca
Translator
Translator


Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 695
Location: Terni - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Sono riuscito a tovare questi due "incredibili" errori (almeno spero, sennò faccio pure una figura "barbina" Very Happy )

Carole wrote:


The Marriage Promise

... Domenico Nardi from the said Castello di Papigno, his
fellowcountry man, with who he subsequently ...

For the dowry then, and in the name of Dowry of Orsola for now the above mentioned Canzonetti couple will give, and assign together and for them to the above mentioned Domenico his future bride present and at the same time...


Per la storia del colore non riesco ad esserti d'aiuto. Era una formula di rito che usavano spesso i notai, ma non ho mai approfondto per stabilire bene cosa fosse. Faceva parte, comunque, di un formulario che assicurava l'acquirente (o, come in questo caso, chi doveva ricevere la dote) che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca.

Ciao e grazie Carole

Luca
Back to top
View user's profile
BillieDeKid
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

So it was important for the property to have no mortgage? I can see where that would be a benefit to Domenico Nardi.

No ipoteca importante? Beneficio per Domenico.

_________________
Elizabeth
Brognaturo On Line
Brognaturo Civil Records
Mangiardi, Tedeschi/Tedesco, Zangari, Coda, DeFrancesco, Ierulli, Bava, Daniele, Valente
Back to top
View user's profile
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

OK - (with my apologies) here is the last paragraph that I somehow missed. I will now edit the original translation and add this.
Carole


From that dowry as established above, and assigned to the said Domenic now when it is assigned he will be content, and satisfied, and he will promise to maintain, and to keep for his future bride, and that will not diminish, and steadfast in the case of restitution , that is the marriage is dissolved he will promise to repay to who has reason in the world, and prepare, that which he has received in total, and in accordance with the municipal statutes of this city of Terni, and no other because it is like this.
And following the agreement, it is agreed as above the said Canzonetti couple have together equally , as above, built and assigned the dowry to Madalena their other daughter who is still a child of seven years established now for when she will be married the sum of one hundred scudos in Roman coins to take above the land with olive trees found in the afore mentioned territory, and property in Vocabolo la Stentella for the value of said one hundred scudos, to the married couple expecting and bordering from the beginning to the land of Pietro Paolo Pacelli, together with the land inherited from Mattia Porchetti, owned by Ipolito Erculei, from the side of the land of Giovanni Battista Fabrizi, except others(?).


[...]
Quae omnia §, alias §, de quibus§, quod §, prò quibus § [...]
Actum Interamnae in Archivio Apostolico praesentibus Archangelo Salvati filio quondam Francisci Josephi, et Augustino Pacelli filio quondam Francisci Mariae de Castro Papineae, testibus.
Thaddeus Dominicus Agostinangeli Notarus rogitus.



_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca said:
Per la storia del colore non riesco ad esserti d'aiuto. Era una formula di rito che usavano spesso i notai, ma non ho mai approfondto per stabilire bene cosa fosse. Faceva parte, comunque, di un formulario che assicurava l'acquirente (o, come in questo caso, chi doveva ricevere la dote) che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca.

For the story of the colours I really can't help. It was a ritual formula often used by notaries, but I have never gone into it further to establish just what it is. It was a part, however, of a questionnaire that ensured that the purchaser (or, as in this case, who was to receive the dowry) that the goods and chattels that were being assigned were freely availabile to the giver and there wasn't any mortgage on them.


Thank you Luca... Sorry about the two errors! Embarassed I really must pay more attention Crying or Very sad

_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
Luca
Translator
Translator


Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 695
Location: Terni - Italy

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Carole wrote:

Thank you Luca... Sorry about the two errors! Embarassed I really must pay more attention Crying or Very sad

Avrai capito (senza dubbio) che scherzavo dicendo che avevi commesso due incredibili errori (si trattava di insignificanti sviste). Hai portato avanti una traduzione perfetta!
Grazie (come sempre)
Luca

Nota:
Aggiungo (oltre al fatto che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca) che il cedente era tenuto a rispettare l'accordo e non inventarsi false scuse per riavere indietro ciò che aveva ceduto o venduto (ed infatti mendicato dovrebbe significare "mendace" (cioè falso, ossia non doveva inventare falsi pretesti - il perché usavano la parola "colore" però non saprei dirlo)
Back to top
View user's profile
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Carole wrote:

Thank you Luca... Sorry about the two errors! Embarassed I really must pay more attention Crying or Very sad

Avrai capito (senza dubbio) che scherzavo dicendo che avevi commesso due incredibili errori (si trattava di insignificanti sviste). Hai portato avanti una traduzione perfetta!
Grazie (come sempre)
Luca

Nota:
Aggiungo (oltre al fatto che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca) che il cedente era tenuto a rispettare l'accordo e non inventarsi false scuse per riavere indietro ciò che aveva ceduto o venduto (ed infatti mendicato dovrebbe significare "mendace" (cioè falso, ossia non doveva inventare falsi pretesti - il perché usavano la parola "colore" però non saprei dirlo)

I will add (other than the fact that the goods that were assigned were the full responsibility of the giver and there was no mortgage on them) that the giver was held to respect the agreement and to not invent false excuses to have back that which had been given or sold and in fact mendicato should mean "mendace" (that is false, in other words he should not invent false pretexts - the reason they used the word "colore" I don't have an explanation.

_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
BillieDeKid
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Because I was so curious about - begging colors - I asked a friend of mine from Calabria, who is a published historian for these types of records - what this actually means. Here is her reply........

Hi Elizabeth,

It is exactly what I assumed - a dowry contract and its conditions. Now the word COLORE here does not refer to COLOR of painting, pigments and such.

The NOTAIO is using it as the plural of COLORO (bad ital.?) Thus, he is admonishing - THEY, THOSE, WHO - how to proceed in the case of being evicted from the land, etc.

Do you need the full text? When you said old document I go straight to the crusades! Bad!

So there is the answer. I hope this helps with the explanation.

_________________
Elizabeth
Brognaturo On Line
Brognaturo Civil Records
Mangiardi, Tedeschi/Tedesco, Zangari, Coda, DeFrancesco, Ierulli, Bava, Daniele, Valente
Back to top
View user's profile
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

It is just questions like this think that move us into further research that makes genealogy so interesting and such a challenge.

How sad I feel that I have arrived so late in life and that I have lost all that time 'til now not even knowing that such things existed... But now I'm really getting into it and - I must admit - I'm enjoying every minute! giornale

_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
BillieDeKid
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

You do a fantastic job Carole!!!

_________________
Elizabeth
Brognaturo On Line
Brognaturo Civil Records
Mangiardi, Tedeschi/Tedesco, Zangari, Coda, DeFrancesco, Ierulli, Bava, Daniele, Valente
Back to top
View user's profile
Luca
Translator
Translator


Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 695
Location: Terni - Italy

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Sorry Liz, I don't agree with your friend. I think the word is colore and not coloro, also if the meaning isn't that we can think (painting, pigments etc.).
Here is the pic (check the first line):



Luca
Back to top
View user's profile
BillieDeKid
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Hi Luca,

Here is the paragraph I sent her to look at......................

Here is the paragraph from the marriage promise.......the date of document is 1752.

Promettendo dd(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti in solidum li sud(ett)i terreni essere loro liberi, immuni, ed esenti da ogni, e qualunque peso, cenzo, canone, livello, servitù, cond(izio)ne, caducità, devoluz(ion)e fideicommisso purificato, ò da purificarsi, e da ogni, e qualunque altra cosa, che potesse impedire la p(rese)nte assegna, e costituz(ion)e di dote, quale promisero in solidum, come sopra, sempre, ed in perpetuo aver rata, grata, valida, e ferma, e contro non fare, dire, opporre, o venire sotto quals(ivogli)a pretesto, causa, ingegno, ò mendicato colore altrim(en)ti in caso contrario vollero esser tenuti dell’evizz(ion)e gen(eral)e, univer(sa)le, e par(tico)lare in ... de’ sud(ett)i terreni p(er) la sud(et)a somma di scudi cento da stendersi secondo lo stile della Curia Romana, ed à tutti i danni § de quali §.
Della qual dote come sopra costituita, ed assegnata il d(ett)o Domenico adesso p(er) quando [sarà assegnata] se ne chiamò contento, e sodisfatto, e quella promise mantenere, e conservare p(er) d(ett)a sua futura sposa, e quella non deteriorare, ed in caso di restituzione tanto costante, che sciolto il matrimonio promise restituirla à chi sarà di raggione nel modo, e forma, che l’ha ricevuta in tutto, e p(er) tutto in conformità dello statuto municipale di questa città di Terni, e non altrim(en)ti § perché così §.

Yes....not painting, pigments etc.

_________________
Elizabeth
Brognaturo On Line
Brognaturo Civil Records
Mangiardi, Tedeschi/Tedesco, Zangari, Coda, DeFrancesco, Ierulli, Bava, Daniele, Valente
Back to top
View user's profile
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Sorry Liz, I don't agree with your friend. I think the word is colore and not coloro, also if the meaning isn't that we can think (painting, pigments etc.).
Here is the pic (check the first line):



Luca

Well my view, for what it's worth on this is that the script here shows a clear 'e' at the end of the word 'colore'. Had it been an 'o' I would have been reading it as 'with them' and would have sought another context in which to place those three words.

But having said that, and taking into consideration the remainder of that particular sentence is it possible that this (below) is the context in which that word/phrase should be viewed? From 'De Mauro:

COLORE: 4 FO: apparenza, aspetto: gli avvenimenti raccontati hanno il c. della leggenda | verosimiglianza, credibilità: dare c. ad un imbroglio, ad una bugia, renderli credibili

Appearance, aspect: the happenings recounted have the appearance of legend/myth | likelyhood/probability, credibility: give credibility to a swindle/trick, to a lie, to render it believable.

_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
  Page 3 of 4All times are GMT - 4 Hours

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index General Discussion Groups Printer Friendly Page

  
 
Jump to:  



You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Hosted By Site5.com
The logos and trademarks used on this site are the property of Gente di Mare Genealogy.
We are not responsible for comments posted by our users, as they are the opinions of the poster.
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy
TCD_ItalianGene © Gente di Mare Genealogy