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Community Forums › All Things Italian › Translations › latin translation

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latin translation
For help with translating documents or writing letters.
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: latin translation Reply with quote

i have received a 1669 notary record in latin for the wife of my ninth great grandfather. unfortunately it is too complicated for me and it is five pages. i would be hesitant to post them here given their length and my previous inability to get image shack to work right.

does anyone know of a good translator with time i could retain? thanks.

tommaso
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote



here is the first page - maybe if i figured out image shack?

tommaso
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MauroMags
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

I have no idea what it says... but that is an amazing document! Can I ask how you went about acquiring this?
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nuccia
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

Tommaso

If you email them to me I can post them (hopefully the images are much larger). My email is nuccia.salvati @ gmail.com

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Luca
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

It's not easy to give you a translation because the text is hard to read, due to the fact that there are ink stains from the backside and, first of all, the image is too small. If you provide a larger pic i can try to give you the main informations.

Ciao

L.
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

to all thanks, i will email them to get all of them posted hopefully at a larger scale which i could not figure out how to do.

the individual whom i hired to help me research local church records also let me know that notary records existed back to about 1600 in the area as well as several church census (stato delle anime). after we exhausted the church records, he began a review of the notary records. the list of those notary records is amazing - here is a partial listing of the oldest:

1. Cerreto Sannita.

a. Giulio Cesare Cappella from 1635 through 1652.

b. Fulgenzio De Blasio from 1616-1635

c. Alberto Izzo from 1634 through 1672

d. Simone Gipzio from 1651 through 1688

e. Agostino Biondi from 1634 through 1684

f. Alfonso Mazzacane from 1654 through 1679 + 1689.

g. Lorenzo Mazzarelli from 1699 through 1726

h. Giacomo Iuliani from 1708-1736



2. Telese-Solopaca.

Very few records for early 1600’s.

Francesco Antonio Falsano 1653-1658.


3.Guardia Sanframondi.

Ascanio Pigna 1611-1636
Nunzio Golino 1658-1670


they have provided some clues and occasionally have marriage contracts which help solve loose ends.

tommaso
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

here are the basics of the first page of the document:

11 JUN 1699: Marzia Magnati widow of the late Mattia Pacello and her sons Nicola and Giuseppe Pacello of S.Salvatore are transacting with Giovanni Donato Cofrancesco and his wife Caterina Pacello and son Antonio Cofrancesco.

tommaso
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

one minor correction. the document date is actually 1669, not 1699.
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Luca
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

dragoni wrote:
here are the basics of the first page of the document:

11 JUN 1699: Marzia Magnati widow of the late Mattia Pacello and her sons Nicola and Giuseppe Pacello of S.Salvatore are transacting with Giovanni Donato Cofrancesco and his wife Caterina Pacello and son Antonio Cofrancesco.

tommaso

That seems to be right (in this first page doesn't appear Giovanni Donato Cofrancesco - odd surname moreover, i think Colafrancesco could be more probable - and his wife, but Matthia's family is well described)... so you already know the summary content of the act?
If you need a total transcription and translation i can't be helpful for you. You need a professional (not for free, obviously).

L.
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

luca:

all i know are the basics of what the document is - some sort of transaction between the parties noted. given the size of the document i expect to have to retain someone to translate the entire document for me and understand i need to compensate them for their effort.

are you available to do so? if not do you know someone who may? please send me an email at tompriscilla @ verizon.net if so.

mille grazie.

tommaso
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Luca
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

I haven't the time to do that, i only can give you a summary idea of what the document contains (if i'm able to do it, obviously). I can ask for someone to transcribe the entire document, but i'm not sure to give you a positive answer.

L.
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nuccia
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

Here are some clearer images of the documents:

www.gentedimareitalian...mattia.JPG

www.gentedimareitalian...attia1.JPG

www.gentedimareitalian...attia2.JPG

www.gentedimareitalian...attia3.JPG

www.gentedimareitalian...attia4.JPG

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Last edited by nuccia on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

thank you nuccia.

luca - any type of information about the document would be appreciated. i am wondering whether it has something to do with my 9th greatgrandfathers will or death as he is identified as deceased. at least i know he died by 1669.


thank you all so much.

tom
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Luca
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

I hope you can understand italian.

L'atto è un po' complesso ma penso di averlo capito. Prima di tutto per avere un quadro completo bisognerebbe esaminare anche l'atto precedente a quello postato, perché sembrano essere collegati per tre ragioni:
la prima è il riferimento contenuto già nella data in cui si parla dello stesso giorno dell'atto precedente [img=http://s1.postimage.org/1R_BCJ.jpg]
la seconda è il fatto che i coniugi Cofrancesco (a proposito, il cognome sembra proprio Cofrancesco!) sono citati anche nell'atto precedente [img=http://s2.postimage.org/irzNr.jpg]
la terza è un po' più complicata e si riferisce all'oggetto del rogito; da quello che sono riuscito a capire si tratta di una sorta di permuta, di scambio di case ( [img=http://s1.postimage.org/1S4KTi.jpg] ) ossia la vedova Pacelli con i figli cede la propria casa ai coniugi Cofrancesco in cambio della loro. Il motivo non sembra essere riportato, però la cosa strana è che in questo rogito è descritta solo la casa di Marzia Pacelli ( [img=http://s2.postimage.org/isLCJ.jpg] ) e non l'altra, ma allo stesso tempo il notaio dice sempre "la detta casa" riferendosi a quella di Cofrancesco, per questo ritengo che ci sia collegamento con l'atto che viene prima. Tutto il resto sono formule legali che si riferiscono all'effettivo possesso e disponibilità delle due famiglie sui rispettivi beni oggetti dello scambio, protezione di una delle parti dall'eventuale rivalsa di creditori dell'altra parte, validità dell'atto nei confronti di eredi presenti e futuri, soddisfazione reciproca ecc. ecc.
Insomma, non ci sono grandi notizie di tipo genealogico; ad esempio non si dice quando sia morto Mattia Pacelli né se ci sia parentela tra lui e Caterina Pacelli, moglie di Giovanni Donato Cofrancesco. L'unica cosa che si può ricavare è che i figli di Marta e Mattia sono maggiorenni, così come Antonio, il figlio di Caterina e Giovanni Donato (i quali, invece, hanno altri tre figli minorenni: [img=http://s1.postimage.org/1S86Ur.jpg] ).
Ovviamente, facendo una trascrizione completa altri particolari potrebbero saltar fuori, ma sarebbero curiosità legate all'atto stesso e non tanto ad informazioni genealogiche pure che non mi sembra di aver visto (e che, per esperienza, posso dire che nei rogiti non ci sono, a meno che non si tratti di testamenti o divisioni ereditarie o doti, nei quali qualcosina in più viene fuori, ma quasi mai date di nascita o di morte, come magari potrebbe sperare un genealogista).
Spero di esserti stato d'aiuto.

Luca
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: latin translation Reply with quote

luca, mille grazie.

i will see if nuccia will post larger versions of the document to which this one refers which may identify why marzia is giving "her house" to mr. cofrancesco and in exchange for what.

tommaso
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