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Community Forums › All Things Italian › Translations › One more - please tell me the difference

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One more - please tell me the difference
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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:17 am    Post subject: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

I know this is going to be a lot of documents but it's a bit confusing for me at this point. I know some of these are pubblicazioni and a couple are baptism's (estratto I believe). Why are there so many pubblicazioni for the same couple and which documents are the actual atti di matrimonio? Also there is a document that I believe is a promise of marriage (maybe) what is that ? I've never seen one like this before.....it says processi verbale??

Thanks and I apologize for posting so many images but I'd like to know what they are........I have many other couples that have the same images.

[img=http://s2.postimage.org/18W3mJ.jpg]
[img=http://s3.postimage.org/wuXuS.jpg]
[img=http://s1.postimage.org/SMZo9.jpg]

[img=http://s4.postimage.org/iwnh9.jpg]
[img=http://s1.postimage.org/SN3nr.jpg]
[img=http://s3.postimage.org/wv8YA.jpg]
[img=http://s3.postimage.org/wviX9.jpg]
[img=http://s4.postimage.org/iwsgr.jpg]
[img=http://s3.postimage.org/wvqqA.jpg]
[img=http://s3.postimage.org/wvvpS.jpg]
[img=http://s3.postimage.org/wvAp9.jpg]
[img=http://s2.postimage.org/18W8m0.jpg]

Thanks again and I apologize for posting so many at once. Hopefully once I know what these are I will be able to apply it to the rest of my records from 1809-1851.

Embarassed

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Elizabeth
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Last edited by BillieDeKid on Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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uantiti
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Elizabeth,
I didn't look at the documents yet but seen that you asked why so many "publicazioni" for the same couple, the answer is that when a couple was requesting to be married, banns had to be published twice (or three times), usually on Sundays at the City Hall door so that everybody could see and inform the Mayor in case of obstacles.
Here you can see a Codice di Napoleone, towards the middle of the page there is something on the "Publicazioni", starting from #63. Hope you understand some Italian, sorry there is no English version.

I don't know much about "Promessa di Matrimonio". I'll see what I can find, possibly in English.

Ada

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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Hi Ada

Yes I know about the banns being published 3 times but all of my early couples (1809-1851) have 5, 6 and 7 pubblicazioni all with different dates! That's why I'd like to know what they were all for. You will see prima pubblicazioni and seconda pubblicazioni but then there are 4 or 5 more??? Just wondering why so many and what all of the extra's are for. The Processi Verbale (I'm assuming) is the verbal promise of marriage but I would just like it verified that processi verbale=verbal promise of marriage

It will be interesting for me to learn about these documents because all of my other people getting married between 1809 to 1851 have many many pubblicazioni too. I'll be able to use what I learn here, about these documents, for the rest of the people getting married. You don't need to translate them.

Thank you for your help Smile

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uantiti
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Hi Elizabeth,
well to understand what these documents are I had to read them:

The 1st one is a request written by the Mayor to the Clerck (chancellor) saying that in accordance with the Napoleon Code Article 63, a first bann had to be published for mr.....and miss...and so on.

The 2nd one is written by the chancellor/clerck and says that he went and attached the bann and announced that mr...and miss...were going to marry....

The 3rd one is again the Maior writing to the Clerck for the second bann.

The 4th one seems to be just a copy of the 3rd one.

I'm going to read the others, I'll be back

Ada

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

The 5th one is a declaration written by the Mayor of Serra where he certifies that he published the banns twice (if the groom and the bride were from different towns, banns had to be published in both City Halls). He gives details about the groom, parents and so on. It's signed by him and the Clerck.

The 6th one is in Latin. Sorry, I studied Latin but that was ages ago. I don't dare to translate, I guess it's the priest writing the groom birth act and stating he is single.

The 7th and 8th ones are two pages of the same document which is the consent undersigned by the parents to said marriage.

The 9th and 10th ones are the marriage act.

I'll come back with the rest.

Ada

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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Thanks so much Ada I corrected the 4th image I didn't realize I had duplicated the third image I'm very sorry. Yes the latin documents (I believe) are the extracts of the births for the bride and groom.

I appreciate what you're doing very very much Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

I'm not sure but the one in Latin is the birth act written by the priest but it concerns only the groom. All these documents, I believe, represent what they usually call "Processetti" which are the attachments to marriage acts.

About the last three: one is a proxy but I've got to read it better to see what it has to do with the marriage, the following seems the 2nd page of the proxy and the last one looks the birth act (from the priest) for the bride but again I'm not sure as it's in Latin.
I'm in a hurry as I've got to prepare supper otherwise they are going to eat my laptop.

Ada

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Thank you Ada kiss and don't let them eat your laptop!! Shocked

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Ada, thanks! I learned a lot. Now I have a question -

What is the difference between Allegati and Processetti? There was a newsletter sent out by my FHC and the editor was not clear about what the Allegati were so I would like to said her "Gente's" official definition so anyone who can share, please do. She will be writing her follow up newsletter tomorrow and I would like her to include the answer in it.

This is what she wrote:

A number of our patrons have ordered films from Italy entitled “Allegati” and even after looking at them I could not figure out what they were. Ancestry says “The allegati records are documents about a family that a couple had to submit before they could get married. They often provide documentation on several generations of the bride and groom’s family, occasionally even stretching back to the 17th and 18th centuries.”

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

From what I could understand, the proxy was written by the groom (he was a notary). He could not go to Brognaturo for the marriage as he had to follow his business giornale so he sent his brother in law to act on his behalf Shocked and marry the girl.

Very romantic, isn't it?

Ada

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

nuccia wrote:
Ada, thanks! I learned a lot. Now I have a question -

What is the difference between Allegati and Processetti? There was a newsletter sent out by my FHC and the editor was not clear about what the Allegati were so I would like to said her "Gente's" official definition so anyone who can share, please do. She will be writing her follow up newsletter tomorrow and I would like her to include the answer in it.

This is what she wrote:

A number of our patrons have ordered films from Italy entitled “Allegati” and even after looking at them I could not figure out what they were. Ancestry says “The allegati records are documents about a family that a couple had to submit before they could get married. They often provide documentation on several generations of the bride and groom’s family, occasionally even stretching back to the 17th and 18th centuries.”

Nuccia,
"Processetti" and "Allegati" are the same thing. They are a collection of documents that had to be submitted before getting married, they usually include birth acts, parents consent, or grandparents consent, death act of a parent in case any of them was dead, or death act of a previous wife/husband. There are other members who know the matter better than me. We wrote something about this on IG HERE

Ada

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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

uantiti wrote:
From what I could understand, the proxy was written by the groom (he was a notary). He could not go to Brognaturo for the marriage as he had to follow his business giornale so he sent his brother in law to act on his behalf Shocked and marry the girl.

Very romantic, isn't it?

Ada


HOLY COW Shocked Shocked

That's really interesting Ada thank you kiss

And Nuccia I was going to ask the same thing. After seeing all the records of Brognaturo 1809-1851 I was really confused as to the difference between processetti and allegatti. All of my allegatti from 1860-1910 had cover pages that said "Allegatti" .....same with Processetti but after looking at the earlier years I was completely confused.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

The following is a summary written by John Armellino and posted on Italian Genealogy on Jul 04, 2008.

Quote::
PROCESSETTI: These documents, first required by a Napoleonic Edict of 1808, were required by the state before a couple could get married. Some towns stopped requiring processetti at the end of the Napoleonic Era in 1815, but most Southern Italy towns continued the practice until unification circa 1865. As uantiti pointed out, the particular situation determined what documents were required. In its simplest form – when all of the parents of the couple to be married were alive and present in the town to consent in person to the marriage – the processetti would include just the bride and groom's birth extracts and the pubblicazioni posted in anticipation of the marriage. In the most extreme case (where all of the parents were deceased), processetti would include the bride and groom's birth extracts, the parent's death extracts, the grandparent's death extracts, and the pubblicazioni. In addition, the death extracts of any deceased spouse would also be included. However, in the case of multiple spouses, only the last spouse's death extract would be included. Finally, certain other extracts and notary records might be included, such as the consent of an absent father, adoptions, the recognition of a child once abandoned to the ruota di proietti, notarized statements of paternity or death where the relevant civil record could not be found, etc. Once I found a Sentence of Death among the processetti (for one of the fathers – not the groom!). A virtual gold mine for genealogists! Different towns enforced these requirements differently. All of the required death extracts were not always required or presented. For example, only the grandfather's death extracts would be included in some towns.

DIVERSI: As nuccia pointed out, there records might include anything. However, the most common documents seen among the atti di diversi are (1) birth records of still-born children (morti-nati), (2) birth records of abandoned children (nati di proietti), (3) records of deaths of inhabitants that took place outside the town (morti fuori), (4) adoptions (adozioni), (5) recognitions of abandoned children (recognizioni), (6) changes of domicile (domicilio), (7) records of earlier deaths (morti tardi), and (8) records of the deaths of persons unknown (morti ignoti). There may, of course, be other records that I haven't run across during my research.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Oh that is romantic. My parents had the same situation. Dad was already in Canada when he decided to marry my mother so his brother went to her hometown and stood proxy for him. She then came to Canada and married my father in a church ceremony.

On Dec 11 my parents will be celebrating they're 50th Wedding Anniversary, God willing.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: One more - please tell me the difference Reply with quote

Another explanation:

allegati: enclosures or attached documents; see
processetti matrimoniali.

atto della solenne promessa di celebrare il matrimonio
:
after the restoration of the Bourbon King of the
Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (1816) weddings took
place only in the Roman Catholic Church, but
because the civil registration started in
Napoleonic times (1805-1815) was continued after
the Restoration, couples were required to make
a solemn promise of intent to marry in front of
the civil authority before the church wedding
could take place.


processetti matrimoniali: documents required by the
civil authority for marriage (also called
allegati): birth certificates (atti di nascita) of
the spouses (and for when weddings took place only
at church: proof of baptism); death certificates
of deceased parents (atti di morte) (and when a
father was deceased, also the death certificate of
his father), since people, regardless of their
age, could not marry without parental consent;
summary of the marriage banns (pubblicazioni) with
testimony that they had been posted for the period
required by law; and for when weddings took place
only at church: a notation (indicazione) by the
parish priest that the wedding had taken place.
The decision of a Consiglio di famiglia also
belongs among the processetti. See atto di
matrimonio and atto della solenne promessa.


Hope all this will help.

Ada

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