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Community Forums › How Can I locate my Family in Italy › Southern Italy › Occupazione --- Custode di Neri

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Occupazione --- Custode di Neri

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charliemis
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Nuccia's post for the Italian Extraction Guide reminded me a question I have not been able to answer about an Occupazione listed for older records (early 1800's)for San Giorgio Albanese, Provincia di Cosenza, Calabria. It was listed in a number of records -- Custode di Neri. The literal translation is Custodian of the Blacks. I don't think this poor little town in the mountains of Cosenza could have had black slaves ( most of the folks were tennent farmers) .....has anyone ever heard of the occupation? I also asked my Italian cousins and they had no ideas.............thanks

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Good question Charlie..could it be a night watchman? Or a grave night watchman? Just a thought....

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Charliemis,

Check my p.m.
Aether

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Charliemis,

Another possibility:
During Holy week churches in Italy are draped in black - "parata in nero", generally a custodian takes care of all religious vestments. Custode di neri could be the one in charge? Question?

Another possibility: The Roman nobility are called the "Black nobility", the "Neri"...
On special occasions in ST. Peter's, and other Basilicas, etc. the "Neri" are assigned special seating according to title (rank). Very rigid!

There is always a person assigned to such protocol = taking care of the seating for the black nobility, "the Neri" ,diplomats, officials etc.

But, still we have the harvest of the little "neri" fruits....

Out of context is difficult, do you have a full text?

Sophia Confused

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:25 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

it was listed as their occupation on various docs such as Atto di Nascita

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Researching: Corato, Provincia di Bari in Puglia e San Giorgio Albanese, Provincia di Cosenza in Calabria.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Charliemis,

But can you tell me more - i.e. after someone's name? Like relatives, witnesses present, in a church, parish document?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Still trying to find out the meaning of this "Occupazione...Custode di neri"

For sure has nothing to do with churches, or black nobility. Checked with someone in Cosenza and I was told that it is possible that "neri" was originally a word from the local dialect, translated not correctly by someone not familiar with Italian language as "neri".
Need the full text where "neri" appears and date of document.
The little fruit "nera" are the wild "mori".
Still a mystery - send me more info. please.

Sophia

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Good idea, Sophia. Charlie, can you post the document? I would also be curious to see it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Nuccia,
I had asked Charlie to send the text, but have not seen it as yet.
Here I am again:

From Cosenza, Rende:

" Custodi di neri, tradotto alla lettera significa quello che abbiamo detto al telefono: GUARDIANI;CUSTODI di uomini con la pelle scura.
E' improbabile che a San Giorgio Albanese si fossero stati dei negri.
Potrebbe essere una parola del dialetto antico trascritta in un documento. Pensa anche che cognomi venivano trascritti come si pronunciavano in dialetto, risultando del tutto diversi.
Bisogna vedere nel testo quale significato puo assumere la frase che stai cercando.
Puo farmi un messaggio?"

So, here you have from UCal!

Sophia Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Unfortunately, I don't know if I saved the actual docs after I extracted the information from the various records [I only printed or saved close relatives; there was no access to digital copies when I first began this activity in 2002 plus the microfilm printer never worked very well)--- I think I have recorded about 8-10 cases where this appeared as the occupazione that was listed on either Atti di Nascita or Matrimonio [Father or Bridegroom]......I completed my research on my Maternal family (San Giorgio Albanese) about 3 years ago. I will need to search through a large quantity of electronic records and hard copies to see if I saved a copy of one of the actual docs.

And lastly, there is no additional data, only their occupazione listed after their name and age

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Charlie,

I understand that it will be difficult to locate the data. However, do you know if the family you are researching had land, cultivated any specific fruit, or greens?

I found somewhere a snip of a note about a fruit "neri", but that was all. Some berries are rather dark ( mori) and must be harvested with care- this is just speculation, will continue to search.

Interesting that more than one (1) individual was listed as having this occupation! Since it was in San Giorgio Albanese, could the word be in "arberesh" . Will ask another person.

Sophia Sad

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Sophia,

I looked through my digital records and I can't find any scanned docs where this Occupazione occured that I was able to record (the digital scanner was not available back then). Someday I might find a hardcopy but that is a monumental task (I save a lot of docs but I am not a good organizer of my data). I did go through my FTM database and I will list some records (but the DOBs are very rough because they were not all from Atti di Nascita):

Giacomo Scura - B. BTW 1779-1787 -- Custode di Neri [BTW 1814-1821]
Gennaro Scura - B. BTW 1748-1785 -- Custode di Neri [BTW 1816-1820]
Giorgio Scura - B. BTW 1786-1787 --- Custode di Neri [1822]
Antonio Scura - B. 1827 --------------- Custode di Neri [1857]
Francesco Saverio Scura - B 4/10/1801 - Custode di Neri [1820]
Salvatore Minisci - B. 3/22/1835 --------- Custode di Neri [1880]; he was a Pastore from 1868-1876

There are a few more who were witnesses.

My Maternal Great Grandmother was a SCURA and my Mom's maiden name was Minisci. I don't know if they owned land back then, but they do today as my Great Aunt's showed me their plots of land when I visited San Giorgio Albanese (One lives in my Great Grandfather's house so i assumed he originally owned the land they cultivate now). All these folks are related to me in some fashion (Great.... Uncles or cousins).

Thanks for your interest.

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Researching: Corato, Provincia di Bari in Puglia e San Giorgio Albanese, Provincia di Cosenza in Calabria.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Charlie,
Vocabulario della Crusca.

You list Salvatore M..., Pastore from 1868-1876.

We MAY have found it, follow the sequence:

Pastore= Guardiano

Guardiano= It is also Custode

Pecoraio= Guardiano di pecore= Custode di pecore

In Calabria there are Goats = Pecore (white and black), and also

Lambs= Agnelli (white and black)

Not 100% , but almost sure it is 90% = Custode di (pecore, agnelli) neri.

Both animals still today are very important in Calabria re: local economy.

Sophia
giornale think Rolling Eyes Idea

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Secondo me "custode di neri" non esiste. Ho l'impressione (ma ripeto, è una mia impressione) che tu possa aver letto male il documento. Se dovessi avere la possibilità di ritrovare l'originale postalo e gli diamo un'occhiata insieme.
Solo a titolo di esempio potrebbe essere: custode di verri (ma senza l'originale sono soltanto supposizioni).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Occupazione --- Custode di Neri Reply with quote

Hi Luca,

I am positive it is "Custode di Neri" as there were many occurences and it was very clear and legible on some of the documenti.

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