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Luca
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

I have the complete transcription of a "marriage promise" and the concerning dowry. I think it's very interesting to understand what were the real reasons that could decide a marriage in XVIII century (in this case, in fact, unlike to usual - when was only said that the wedding had been decided through the agency of common friends - it's related the true cause that moved the bride's father to fix the marriage Shocked )
Only a problem: it's entirely in Italian! Do you want try and read it?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

How long is it Luca? If you've transcribed it I might find time to translate it .... I think it 'might' be useful to have this translated...

Anyone have any views on this?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Not too much long Shocked Shocked Shocked

Constit(uti)o Dotis
Prò
Ursula, et Magdalena Canzonetti
Die 2 Maii 1752. Ind(ictio)ne XV, Pont(ificat)us SS(anctissi)mi D(omini) N(ostri) PP. Benedicti XIV, anno ejus XII.
Essendo conforme à me Notaro per verità dall’infradette parti s’asserisce, che Pietro Canzonetta dal Castello di Papigno nel prossimo passato inverno stando alla caccia delli animali d’acqua in un laghetto spettante all’Illustrissimo Sig. Marc’Antonio Castelli in Vocabolo Le Marmore, poco distante dalla di lui casa rurale, dove quasi di continuo soggiorna, restasse malamente offeso, ed impedito nella man sinistra per essergli nello sparo d’un Archibugiata, crepata la canna dell’Archibugio, e per tale disgrazia abbia dovuto guardare il letto per più mesi, stante il quale impedimento siasi quasi reso inabile à poter proseguire il suo mestiere di campagna, ed à coltivare i suoi stabili in suo gran pregiudizio, al quale volendo dare rimedio, abbia penzato di prendere in sua casa un uomo, e con esso collocare in matrimonio Orsola sua figliola primogenita, ed à questo poi appoggiare il peso della di lei direzzione, e della coltura della campagna, e doppo fatte mature riflessioni sopra la scelta di d(ett)o uomo, anche con il conseglio del Sig. Nunziangelo Pacelli, finalmente abbia fissate le sue mire in persona di Domenico Nardi dal detto Castello di Papigno, suo paesano, con cui in sequela abbia fatto abboccare il detto Sig. Nunziangelo, e fattogli conferire il di lui pensiero, il detto Nardi doppo varie, e replicate ponderazioni sopra tale trattato fattegli, finalmente se ne sia dimostrato contento, ed abbia accettato di venire alla contrazzione del matrimonio colla sudetta Orsola figlia di detto Pietro, e di assumere in se stesso il peso della direzzione della casa del medesimo, e della coltura della campagna sudetta, colla condizzione però di stabilire preventivamente non solo la dote di detta Orsola sua futura sposa, ma anche quella di Madalena altra figlia di detto Pietro in età puerile d’anni sette in circa costituita, il che sia stato stabilito nel modo seguente, cioè:
Che tanto il detto Pietro, quanto Maria Sapora sua moglie unitam(en)te e de’ beni communi assegnino in dote di d(ett)a Orsola p(er) ora la somma di scudi cento da prendersi dalli effetti d’essi coniugi, ed altra simil somma adesso, e per quando sarà in stato di maritaggio s’assegnino in dote di d(ett)a Madalena, e che il rimanente del loro patrimonio seguita la morte de’ med(esim)i Pietro, e Maria p(er) la rata di scudi trenta si debino parim(en)te in tanti effetti di d(ett)o loro patrimonio dare, e consegnare alla pred(ett)a Madalena in adempimento di tutto ciò, che la med(esim)a p(er) quals(ivogli)a causa potesse pretendere dalli beni paterni, e materni, ed il resto tutto rimanere in augmento della dote di d(ett)a Orsola, e ciò p(er) compensare in qualche parte il grave peso che deve assumersi il d(ett)o Domenico, dovendo questo oltre il sud(ett)o peso contribuire ancora al vitto, e vestito necessario di d(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti loro vita naturale durante, secondo la possibilità e commodità d’esso Domenico, e convivere unitam(en)te ad un bene, ed un male essi coniugi Canzonetti, dovendosi l’entrate, e rendite de’ med(esim)i, come anche quelli di d(ett)o Domenico ponere in communione, e farne una massa commune, sopra di che avendo stabilito le pred(ett)e parti formarci publ(ic)o Istr(oment)o p(er) rog(at)o mio, perché la verità sempre abbia il suo luogo, quindi è che:
Alla p(rese)nza di me Not(ar)o, e de’ test(imon)ii infra(scri)tti, personalm(en)te costituiti Pietro Canzonetti figlio del q(uonda)m Gio(vanni) Crisostomo, e Maria Sapora figlia del q(uonda)m Gio(vanni) coniugi, ambedue da d(ett)o Castello di Papigno Diocesi di questa città di Terni à me [Notaro] cog(ni)ti in essenza delle cose, come sopra, narrate di loro spontanea volontà, in solidum, ed in ogn’altro miglior modo § promisero, e si obligorono dare p(er) leg(iti)ma sposa, e consorte al sud(ett)o Domenico Nardi figlio del q(uonda)m Antonio dal pred(ett)o Castello à me [Notaro] parim(en)te cognito p(rese)nte §, la sud(ett)a Orsola loro primogenita figlia, e fare, e procurare che la med(esim)a in esso consenta, e servate p(ri)ma le solennità richieste dal Sacro Concilio di Trento, e dalla S(anta) Madre Chiesa, con il sud(ett)o consumarà il S(anto) Matrimonio in d(ett)o Castello di Papigno liberam(en)te §. Ed all’incontro il sud(ett)o Domenico Nardi di sua spontanea volontà, ed in ogn’altro miglior modo promise [...]
Per dote poi, ed in no(m)e di Dote di d(ett)a Orsola p(er) ora diedero, ed assegnarono li sud(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti in solidum e per essa al sud(ett)o Domenico suo futuro sposo p(rese)nte, e per la med(esim)a, e suoi [eredi] accettante, la somma di scudi cento, da prendersi in tanti effetti stabili, e particolarm(en)te sopra un terreno vitato, ed alberato posto in questo terr(itori)o di Terni, pertinenze però del sud(ett)o Castello di Papigno in Voc(abol)o Le Marmore presso i beni da un lato di d(ett)o Sig. Nunzio Angelo, da capo la strada publ(ic)a, da piedi le ripe di cor delle fosse, e dall’altro lato, i beni delli Sig(nor)i Gio(vanni) Batt(ist)a, ed altri Cocchi, salvi altri [confini] e sopra altro terreno olivato posto in dd(ett)i terr(itori)o e pertinenze in Voc(abol)o le Fossatelle presso i beni di Filippo Ant(oni)o Sapora da un lato, de’ sud(ett)i Sig(no)ri Cocchi da capo, ed i beni di Francesco Campilii da piedi salvi altri [confini]; E per causa, e titolo di simile assegna i sud(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti in solidum, come sopra, per l’entrante somma delli sud(ett)i scudi cento cederono per ora tutte, e singole loro raggioni à fav(o)re di d(ett)a Orsola loro figliola, benché assente il sud(ett)o Domenico per la med(esim)a, e suoi [eredi] p(rese)nte, ed accettante, niuna riservandosene, ad averle § con la piena cl(ausol)a del Cost(ituit)o, ed eff(ett)o del precario in forma.
Promettendo dd(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti in solidum li sud(ett)i terreni essere loro liberi, immuni, ed esenti da ogni, e qualunque peso, cenzo, canone, livello, servitù, cond(izio)ne, caducità, devoluz(ion)e fideicommisso purificato, ò da purificarsi, e da ogni, e qualunque altra cosa, che potesse impedire la p(rese)nte assegna, e costituz(ion)e di dote, quale promisero in solidum, come sopra, sempre, ed in perpetuo aver rata, grata, valida, e ferma, e contro non fare, dire, opporre, o venire sotto quals(ivogli)a pretesto, causa, ingegno, ò mendicato colore altrim(en)ti in caso contrario vollero esser tenuti dell’evizz(ion)e gen(eral)e, univer(sa)le, e par(tico)lare in ... de’ sud(ett)i terreni p(er) la sud(et)a somma di scudi cento da stendersi secondo lo stile della Curia Romana, ed à tutti i danni § de quali §.
Della qual dote come sopra costituita, ed assegnata il d(ett)o Domenico adesso p(er) quando [sarà assegnata] se ne chiamò contento, e sodisfatto, e quella promise mantenere, e conservare p(er) d(ett)a sua futura sposa, e quella non deteriorare, ed in caso di restituzione tanto costante, che sciolto il matrimonio promise restituirla à chi sarà di raggione nel modo, e forma, che l’ha ricevuta in tutto, e p(er) tutto in conformità dello statuto municipale di questa città di Terni, e non altrim(en)ti § perché così §.
E proseguendo il concordato, e stabilito come sopra i dd(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti in solidum, come sopra, parim(en)te à titolo di dote costituirono, ed assegnarono à Madalena altra loro figlia in età pupillare d’anni sette costitutita adesso p(er) quando sarà in stato di maritaggio la somma di scudi cento m(one)ta Romana da prendersi sopra il terreno olivato posto nelli pred(ett)i territorio, e pertinenze in Voc(abol)o la Stentella p(er) l’entrante valore di dd(ett)i scudi cento, ad essi coniugi spettante e confinante da capo con i beni di Pietro Paolo Pacelli, da piedi con i beni ereditarii di Mattia Porchetti, posseduti da ipolito Erculei, da un lato con i beni di Gio(vanni) Battista Fabrizi, salvi altri §.
[...]
Quae o(mn)ia §, alias §, de quibus§, quod §, prò quibus § [...]
Actum Interamnae in Archivio Ap(osto)lico p(raese)ntibus Archangelo Salvati fil(io) q(uonda)m Francisci Josephi, et Augustino Pacelli fil(io) q(uonda)m Francisci Mariae de Castro Papineae, t(esti)bus.
Th(addeus) Dominicus Agostinangeli Not(ar)us rog(?)s.

However, the most important part is from line 6 to 25
Nota: le parti racchiuse tra parentesi tonde sono quelle che nel testo originale sono abbreviate. Io ho l'abitudine di riportare la trascrizione fedele e quindi metto la parte abbreviata tra parentesi per dimostrare che è una mia aggiunta; in ogni caso il testo va letto come se le parentesi non ci fossero


Last edited by Luca on Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

I will certainly translate it... but as it's quite long I'll probably do it over several days - as unlike Nuccia I do have another life.

(Oh man - am I in trouble now) !!!! hide


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Carole wrote:
I will certainly translate it... but as it's quite long I'll probably do it over several days - as unlike Nuccia I do have another life.

(Oh man - am I in trouble now) !!!! hide


Oh you most certainly are Carole!

And Luca, you're right..its not long at all! Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

nuccia wrote:
Carole wrote:
I will certainly translate it... but as it's quite long I'll probably do it over several days - as unlike Nuccia I do have another life.

(Oh man - am I in trouble now) !!!! hide


Oh you most certainly are Carole!

And Luca, you're right..its not long at all! Wink

Oh I LOOOOOVE the little 'wabbit' on my signature.... and if this is what I get for being irreverent - then I must do it more often. Wink Now his kind of dance speed is just fine for me! kiss

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

While Carole will think about the translatio on it I want to let you know that in my area (Trapani) this is what the groom and bride bring for the marriage and new coming family:
- the groom buys the complete furniture of the kitchen and all the pots, dishes, spoon, forks and knife
- the parents of the bride buys the complete furniture of sleeping room of couple (they spend is possible several thousand euros, that is the forniture for the entire life) plus the DOTE (1st quality sheets for bed room, napkins, underwear of woman, and so on)
I hope it helps
bye Riccardo

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Riccardo speaks of the Trapani region and what happens there is very similar to the Milanese (and Lombardy Province) customs. I can remember my sister-in-law filling a wardrobe with linen of all types for when her daughter would marry. It was a work of love that took many years of planning.

Whereas up here where I live now in the heart of the Alps, the montanare often own plots of land, dotted around their region, that have belonged to their families for centuries. Often a piece of a plot is given to the couple where they will build their home. The completion of this can often take years. A good example are my neoghbours (or they will be soon), their family, from whom I bought my house, gave the son 1/2 of that remaining plot in June 2004. The couple began the building in July 2006 - the heavy work was completed (including the roof) in November 2006 - and since then 'nothing'. The couple, with family help, will now complete their home as and when they have the money. Some houses can take five or six years to complete. But the dowry system ensured that they would (in time) have a home with no mortgage.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

So am I understanding this correctly? This dowry system is still in place today?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Cathy wrote:
So am I understanding this correctly? This dowry system is still in place today?

Well yes and no... it's no longer called (in this area) a 'dote' or dowry. These days it's seen more as the parents, and often grandparents too, ensuring that their children have something to take into a marriage and it seems the more they have the better the 'figura' they make!

In all honesty though it does (often) become a battle as to whose gifts/wedding chest is the better...
'Keeping up with the Jones's is alive and kicking on that front I can assure you. They even boast about the thickness of the sugar coating on the almonds for the 'confetti'....the thiner it is the better! Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

My mom did the same for us, as did my Paternal Grandmother. When I got married I was given a chest with lots of linens..some antiques that my Grandmother gave us. She also purchased for us a beautiful table cloth and napkins (for my sister and I) when we were only nine. She died shortly after..but for years BEFORE we got married we would go through our chests and look at the stuff and when my sister and I were old enough, we also began adding to it ourselves.

I now currently do the same thing for my daughter and my two nieces. Some traditions are just too special to give up and this one is one of them.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Per Carole

Ho sottolineato le parti della dote che ritengo più importanti per capire il contesto storico. Per la parte rimanente non vale la pena di perderci tempo.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

If someone can read it in Italian (or if someone else can translate it) here is a little part of a dowry in which (other than an amount of money) there is a curious assignation:

In oltre li detti Filippo e Valentino in conto di dote assegnorno alla detta Sabatina loro sorella, una Gamba di un loro Bove di pellame marino chiamato Capitano valutata detta Gamba di Bove d’accordo scudi cinque moneta, e siccome detto Bove resta appresso di loro, perciò promettono e s’obbligano dare per detta Gamba di Bove alli detti futuri coniugi finché il medesimo Bove starà appresso di loro una quarta di Grano l’anno §.
E similmente i suddetti Filippo e Valentino promisero dare per arredo alla detta loro sorella gl’infradetti mobili cioè una tovaglia e sei salviette usate, un Pagliaccio, sei lenzuola, cioè tre grossi e tre sottili, un tornaletto di tela bianca, due foderette da guanciali, una cuperta di mezzalana, una cassa di noce quasi nuova e che si porterà tutti gli’altri biancaria ed altra robba che ha per suo uso, altrimenti §. E circa l’abito delo sposalizio convennero di farlo a spese communi §.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Per Carole

Ho sottolineato le parti della dote che ritengo più importanti per capire il contesto storico. Per la parte rimanente non vale la pena di perderci tempo.
Ciao
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Luca says:
I have underlined the parts of the 'dowry' that I maintain are more important to understand in the historical context. For the remainder it's not really worth wasting time on them.


I have in fact only just begun to do this. The reason being that I nearly always work on MS Word for larger translations. But when I looked at this one my Word programme would not respond. I had upgraded my Office 2003 as soon as I got the new Vista pc and it was fine. But then of course I changed the Italian Vista for an English version. It was that which would not allow my W2003 to upgrade!

So - on Monday I spent some considerable time 'on line' with a Microsoft 'techie' (who was in India!!!) and he took over and tried to install the upgrade too.... It just wouldn't work. Well in the end, after nearly 3 hours he said he'd take the problem away and call me back last night. He didn't call me back (surprise surprise), but when I thought I'd try again myself he had prepared the install screen for me to enter my product key and once I did that I'm back to how it should be.

Thank you Luca for the tip about the important parts - but I have a sneaking feeling that the rest is going to be difficult to ignore... It might take some time, it is rather long - but who knows - if I do a good job someone might offer me a job translating Encyclopedia Brittannica!!! (yeah - right...and pigs could fly LOL)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Well - for what it's worth - here it is 'warts and all'...
Not the nicest (or easiest) document to translate. If anyone finds any mistakes (and believe me you will...) I'm not too sure that I want to know Embarassed




The Marriage Promise

Establishment of Dowry
For the benefit of
Ursula, and Magdalena Canzonetti
The 2 day of May 1752.
Index XV, 12th Holy Pontifical year of Pope Benedict XIV.

Being presented before me the Notary as truth by the two parts it is affirmed that Pietro Canzonetta of Castello di Papigno in the last winter was hunting water animals in a small lake, the property of the Illustrious Mister Marc’Antonio Castelli of Vocabolo Le Marmore a short distance from his country home, where he stayed almost continuously, was offended badly, and crippled in the left hand by the shot from the cracked barrel of an arquebus, and for this misfortune he had to look to his bed for many months, because the injury rendered him unable to pursue his country work, or maintain his stability in his opinion, to which he would wish to find a remedy, he has thought to take into his house a man, and with him to arrange a marriage to Orsola his eldest daughter, and to this to lay her weight to the leadership and to the cultivation of the land, and after making mature reflection on the choice of the said man, together with the advice of Mister Nunziangelo Pacelli, he has finally fixed his aim on the person of Domenico Nardi from the said Castello di Papigno, his peasant, with who he subsequently has made the said Mister Nunziangelo take the bait, and made himtransfer his thought, the said Nardi after varied, and repeated deliberations on the deal did, finally demonstrate himself to be content, and he accepted to come to the marriage contract with the said Orsola daughter of the said Pietro, and to undertake himself the weight of the leadership of the house of the same, and of the cultivation of the said countryside, with the conditions however to establish in advance not only the dowry of the said Orsola his future bride, but also that of , Madalena the other daughter of the said Pietro still a child of about seven years which has been established in the following way, that is:

That the said Pietro, and the said Maria Sapora his wife together and od common goods will assign as the dowry of the said Orsola for now the sum of one hundred scudi to take from the effects of this married couple, and a similar amount now, and for when she will be in a state of marriage will be given in dowry to the said Madalena, and that the remainder of their personal estate (or chattels) following their death of the same Pietro and Maria an instalment of thirty scudos will be debited equally from the effects of their patrimony, and consigned to the previously mentioned Madalena in fulfilment of all that, that the same for any reason can claim from the paternal and maternal goods and chattels, and all the remainder to increase the dowry of Orsola, and to compensate in some way the heavy load that must be assume by the said Domenico, having in addition to this said load continue to contribute to the food and clothing necessary for the said Canzonetti couple for the rest of their lives during, according to the possibility and convenience of Domenico, and to live together in good and bad times the Canzonetti couple owing the income and revenue of the same, as also those of the said Domenico should be put together and shared, having established above which the parts are public and instruments for my drawing up of this deed, because the truth always has it’s place, therefore it is:

In my presence Notary, and of the under mentioned witnesses personally selected by Pietro Canzonetti son of the late Giovanni Crisostomo, and Maria Sapora daughter of the late Giovanni both married from the said Castello di Papigno Diocese of this city of Terni known to me (Notario) and understanding the facts, as above, and writing of their own free will, in solidarity, and in every other good ways promise, and compels them to give as a legitimate bride, and consort to the above mentioned Domenico Nardi son of the late Antonio of the previously mentioned Castello to me (Notary) likewise understanding the above mentioned Orsola their first born daughter, and make, and to obtain that the same consents to this, and will observe before the solemn requests of the Council Of Trento, and of the Holy Mother Church, with the above mentioned w consummate the Holy Marriage in the said Castello of Papigno freely. And at the meeting with the said Domenico Nardi of her spontaneous willingness, and in every other good way promise…

For the dowry then, and in the name of Dowry of Orsola for now we will give, and assign the above mentioned Canzonetti couple together and for them to the above mentioned Domenico his future bride present and at the same time, and his (heirs) acceptance, the sum of one hundred scudi, to take in all effects as established, and particularly over some land cultivated with vines and trees found in this territory of Terni, relative however to the above mentioned Castello of Papigno in Vocabolo Le Marmore near the property to the side of the above mentioned Mister Nunzio Angelo, to the beginning of the public road, on foot the steep heart(?) of the ditches, and from the other side, the property of Mister Giovanni Battista, and other Cocci, except other (borders) and above other land with olives planted in the said territory and relevant in Vocabolo le Fossatelle near the property of Filippo Antonio Sapora to one side of the abovementioned Misters Cocchi da Capo, and the property of Francesco Campilii on foot to save other borders; And for the cause, and claim to similar grants too the said Canzonetti couple together, as above, for the coming sum of said one hundred scudos will give up for now all, and the individual of their reasons in favour of the said Orsola their daughter, although the said Domenico is absent for the same, and his heirs present, and accepting without reservation, and having with the full provision established of the concession in this form.

The said Canzonetti couple promise together the above mentioned lands are theirs free, and exempt from all, or any weight, censorship or rent, perpetual lease, bondage, conditions, lease, transfer or bond purged or to be purged, and from every other thing, that could impede the present assignment and establishment of the dowry, which they promise together, as above, always, and in perpetuity to have firm, valid payments, and not to go or say against, oppose, or come under any pretext, cause, artful, or begging colours otherwise in the opposite case they will be obliged to be generally and universally evicted, and in particular in the said lands for the sum of one hundred scudos to be soread in the manner of the Papal Court, and for all the damages of this.

From that dowry as established above, and assigned to the said Domenic now when it is assigned he will be content, and satisfied, and he will promise to maintain, and to keep for his future bride, and that will not diminish, and steadfast in the case of restitution , that is the marriage is dissolved he will promise to repay to who has reason in the world, and prepare, that which he has received in total, and in accordance with the municipal statutes of this city of Terni, and no other because it is like this.
And following the agreement, it is agreed as above the said Canzonetti couple have together equally , as above, built and assigned the dowry to Madalena their other daughter who is still a child of seven years established now for when she will be married the sum of one hundred scudos in Roman coins to take above the land with olive trees found in the afore mentioned territory, and property in Vocabolo la Stentella for the value of said one hundred scudos, to the married couple expecting and bordering from the beginning to the land of Pietro Paolo Pacelli, together with the land inherited from Mattia Porchetti, owned by Ipolito Erculei, from the side of the land of Giovanni Battista Fabrizi, except others(?).


[...]
Quae omnia §, alias §, de quibus§, quod §, prò quibus § [...]
Actum Interamnae in Archivio Apostolico praesentibus Archangelo Salvati filio quondam Francisci Josephi, et Augustino Pacelli filio quondam Francisci Mariae de Castro Papineae, testibus.
Thaddeus Dominicus Agostinangeli Notarus rogitus.


N.B. Edited to add the final (missed) paragraph... Carole

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Last edited by Carole on Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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