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Community Forums › How Can I locate my Family in Italy › Southern Italy › The Catasto Onciario

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The Catasto Onciario


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DonnaPellegrin
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:51 pm    Post subject: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

I recently came across some information in a book that kind of blew my mind and I thought I would start a discussion about it here. If I understood this information correctly, I think it might be significant for those of us doing Italian genealogy without access to Church records.

The book that I read was called Village Justice: Community, Family, and Popular Culture in Early Modern Italy. It was written by a well-known scholar named Tommaso Astarita. I think Astarita is best known for another book titled Between Salt Water and Holy Water: A History of Southern Italy. I only mention that because some of you here might have read it. At any rate...Astarita is a renown scholar, a top-notch writer and an all around really smart guy.

Village Justice is a micro history that takes place in a tiny Calabrian town called Pentidattilo. (Hang in there, people, I really am about to make a point.)

So...on page 85 of the book Astarita writes:

The most important source for the economic and social makeup of Pentidattilo is the great fiscal and population survey ordered by the Bourbon government, carried out by all università throughout the kingdom in the 1740s and 1750s, and known as the Catasto Onciario….The castato was carried out by the local administrators assisted by two evaluators from nearby communities and was then assessed by the Sommaria. Each università elected deputies and evaluators to compile lists of all households and to assess the capital value of all real estate and animals owned by each household. The catasto assessed the property not only of local citizens and residents but also of the feudal lord, all ecclesiastic foundations…and any nonresidents who held property in the village. The result is both an invaluable source and a monument to eighteenth-century administrative rationalization.

So…there it is, people! A source that could take your southern Italian genealogy back two generations past the Napoleonic civil records. Have you ever heard of it? And how soon can we get this on LDS film?

Donna
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JamesBianco
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Joined: Jul 10, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

Yes The Catasto was taken for most of Mainland Italy (In Sicily we have much better Riveli which were taken more frequently)

for my ancestrial town of Crispano (NA) it is online thankfully, here is one of the extracted pages, so you can see what to expect...

Catasto for Crispano (NA)

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MauroMags
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

Wow James... I would love for my town (Molfetta) to be online.. with so many ancestors from there, i would have a field day analyzing each entry!
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charliemis
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

They are available in the Archivio in Napoli....a guy at my FHC went there a few years ago and was able to spend the day looking through the original 250+ year book from his ancestral town. There are also folks who go and do this for you, but the estimate I was given was about 250 Euro. There were also some additional census taken (catastini) in some towns. I was fortunate enough to receive a copy from my Dad's hometown of Corato. It did not have a lot of info, and although I saw some listings (about 10) of my Cognome, it didn't really help me too much.

I believe that we had a long discussion about this about a year ago.

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Researching: Corato, Provincia di Bari e San Giorgio Albanese, Provincia di Cosenza
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DonnaPellegrin
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

Wow, James, that is absolutely priceless. I will definitely set out to get a copy of Caccuri's catasto. I would gladly pay for it. 250 Euro would be a little steep at todays exchange rate.

Charliemis, I so wish I had been around for that discussion a couple years ago. This is all news to me. I suppose it is too much work to put it on microfilm? That would be too good to be true.

Donna
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JamesBianco
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

Also... some of the Provincial Archives in Italy are digitizing these records and allowing you to buy the actual images on CD. I know Cathy was telling me Cosenza Province (I believe) offered this service, it is possible others do as well.

Maybe check with whatever Archive your town is in?

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lilbees
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

Hi Jim, I was given the price of 500 euro for a copy from the Salerno Archives. That was only the base price. It would be so much ? to be charged for each page.

lilbees

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dragoni
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

the individual who helps me with research in italy obtained photocopies of sheets for a few families i wanted from the 1749 san salvatore catasto for me as part of his daily charge while researching other civil and church records. his daily rate is $385. maybe this route will be more cost effective if you have other research to do the same day.
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DonnaPellegrin
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

dragoni wrote:
the individual who helps me with research in italy obtained photocopies of sheets for a few families i wanted from the 1749 san salvatore catasto for me as part of his daily charge while researching other civil and church records. his daily rate is $385. maybe this route will be more cost effective if you have other research to do the same day.

I am very curious about researchers in Italy. Did your researcher do all of his research in San Salvatore? Or did he go and use the provincial archives also? What could one expect form one day of research? Has your experience been a good one?

Donna
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DonnaPellegrin
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

JamesBianco wrote:
Also... some of the Provincial Archives in Italy are digitizing these records and allowing you to buy the actual images on CD. I know Cathy was telling me Cosenza Province (I believe) offered this service, it is possible others do as well.

Maybe check with whatever Archive your town is in?

Wow. I would collapse in utter bliss if I thought that there was even a possibility of getting such a CD. I love the Cosenza Province website. It is awesome… and in English! The comune that I am most interested in, however, was part of the Catanzaro Province until very recently when it got moved to Crotone. The only useful website I can find for the Archivio di Stato di Catanzaro is the following:
archivi website

I put Caccuri into the search engine and was delighted to see that there is a list of available records from the comune. The notary records of Francesco Antonio Ambrosio from 1802-1823 would be a real gold mine of information for me. His name is recorded as a witness on some of my family's civil documents. So now that I know the notary records exist…I just need to find a way to search them…along with the catasto, of course. I am still marveling that your catasto is online, James. You lucky, lucky dog.

Donna
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Cathy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

I have been contacted by several peoplel wanting to know where to write regarding The Province of Cosenza archives for the Catasto. So I thought I would share that information here too.

Ministero per i Beni e le Attivita Culturali
Archivio di stato di Cosenza
Via Miceli 67/71
87100 Cosenza
Italia

Email: as-cs @ beniculturali.it

Il Direttore: Dr. Anna Maria Letizia Fazio

You must write them in Italian. Make sure to ask the costs. I know the Catasto for Montalto was about $150-200 American.

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dragoni
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

the individual i used has been very helpful. he has searched other comune archives and church records for me throughout benevento and caserta. with his help i have been able to trace my main family line back to about 1600.

tom
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dragoni
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: The Catasto Onciario Reply with quote

scusi, i hit submit before i realized i did not answer all of your questions. i had fairly detailed information back to about 1800 or so when i started with generalized dates from 1750 to 1800. so i suspect i had narrowed down exactly what names and range of dates he needed to focus on making it a bit more productive and cost effective. like most i wish it could all be done faster but as the name i am researching, pacelli, is fairly common, it is a bit tougher than some i suspect to make sure we get the right folks.

given the proximity of the towns (fairly close), multiple spouses and the mobility of the people, it has gotten a bit frustrating trying to find all children and their marriages for instance.

overalll i am happy with the results.

tom
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