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Page Topic: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts
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#1: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: mahartLocation: Liverpool UK PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:20 pm
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Hi everyone it's been awhile since I last posted here and even longer since I've tried to upload from Imageshack so apologies if it messes up.
Anyway if possible could someone help tranlate these extracts taken from the Molfetta Catasto Onciario.
I would much appreciate it if possible.

Mark

img136.imageshack.us/i...to1tr2.jpg

img136.imageshack.us/i...stowq6.jpg

#2: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: LucaLocation: Terni - Italy PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:45 pm
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The 1st pic is too blurry to give you a correct transcription, but let's try...

Mauro Palombella scarparo di anni.........41
Angela ...telli moglie di anni...................35
Faustina figlia di anni.............................15
Giovanni Battista figlio di anni................13
Antonia figlia di anni..............................11(!)
Grazia figlia di anni................................ 9
Anna figlia di anni...................................5 (3?)

Teste che f.(!) uno
Industria.........................................once 1,1

Possiede xxx xxxx di casa alla strada del Trescino
per uso di sua abitazione.
Xxx xxx a S. xxx appresso li beni di Nicolò Gilioli e di altri
stimata una rendita per denari Sei............................ once 20
Una vigna di olive(!) alla Gippicona(!) appresso
li beni di Giuseppe Calista(!) e d'altri xxx xxx
rendita per Carlini 24 .................................................... bai 8
...................................................................................._____
Pesi................................................................................... 28

Annui Carlini 35 per xxx di denari 50 xxx alla contrada delle Morte(!) g. 11,1
xxx xxx xxx


Luca

#3: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: mahartLocation: Liverpool UK PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:19 pm
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Hi Luca thanks for attempting this one for me, it is much appreciated.
I did not know at the time of posting but it is the second image that is more important for my research, I now know that this my direct ancestor. I do understand that it lists the names of the head, wife and children, and also the head occupation, which at present I can not decipher.
The information that follows I cannot really make head or tails of, I mean I know it speaks of what is owned and its worth eg olives etc but I can't translate enough to understand it's context, if that makes sense.

Many thanks Mark

#4: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: LucaLocation: Terni - Italy PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:45 pm
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It seems "Ciccio Paolo Palombella", but Ciccio isn't a true name: it could be a diminutive for Francesco. The word after Palombella makes not apparent sense: it seems to be "impotente", maybe it stands for powerless, unable to work, but i'm not sure.
The wife's name is for me unreadable and the same for the first child (Losaro???).
However Losaro, Antonio and Lucia were students and it was not usual in that period (maybe the family was well-off?).
"Possiede 5 vigne d'olive alle Coppe, appresso i suoi confini stimata xxx vendita per Ducati 15"
It means that he held 5 vigne (a unit of measurement, but i don't know the actual equivalent) of olive trees in the "district" called Coppe, which value was of 15 "Ducati" (a coin used in that period).
"Una casa alla strada di Sant'Andrea col peso di sua abitazione, col peso di molti capitali passivi"
He had a house that was charged of various debts: in fact on the left side you can read " 1768: la casa passata di nuovo in dominio dell'Arciduca(!) Rubini" that means that in the year 1768 he was forced to leave his house to the Arciduca (i'm not sure of this word) Rubini.

Ciao
Luca

#5: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: CaroleLocation: Valtellina - Near Lake Como PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:12 pm
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Luca wrote:
The 1st pic is too blurry to give you a correct transcription, but let's try...

Mauro Palombella scarparo di anni.........41
Angela ...telli moglie di anni...................35
Faustina figlia di anni.............................15
Giovanni Battista figlio di anni................13
Antonia figlia di anni..............................11(!)
Grazia figlia di anni................................ 9
Anna figlia di anni...................................5 (3?)

Teste che f.(!) uno
Industria.........................................once 1,1

Possiede xxx xxxx di casa alla strada del Trescino
per uso di sua abitazione.
Xxx xxx a S. xxx appresso li beni di Nicolò Gilioli e di altri
stimata una rendita per denari Sei............................ once 20
Una vigna di olive(!) alla Gippicona(!) appresso
li beni di Giuseppe Calista(!) e d'altri xxx xxx
rendita per Carlini 24 .................................................... bai 8
...................................................................................._____
Pesi................................................................................... 28

Annui Carlini 35 per xxx di denari 50 xxx alla contrada delle Morte(!) g. 11,1
xxx xxx xxx

Luca


Translation:
Mauro Palombella who carries out his work badly (incompetent) - aged .........41
Angela ...his wife - aged.........................35
Faustina daughter - aged........................15
Giovanni Battista son - aged ................13
Antonia daughter - aged.........................11(!)
Grazia daughter - aged........................... 9
Anna daughter - aged...............................5 (3?)

Testimony (or number - head) who/that f.(!) one
Industry (productivity?)....................ounce 1,1

He owns xxx xxxx of houses of the road of Trescino
to use as his habitation.
Xxx xxx at Saint xxx near to the properties of Nicolò Gilioli and other
esteemed (people) an income of Denari Six ....................... ounce 20
An olive orchard(!) at Gippicona(!) near to the properties of
Giuseppe Calista(!) and of another xxx xxx
income of Carlini 24 .................................................... bai (?) 8
(N:B: Carlini - a gold or silver coin of the Kingdom of Napoli) ...................................................................................._____
Weight................................................................................... 28

Annual Carlini 35 for xxx of denari 50 xxx in the district of Morte (!) g 11..1
xxx xxx xxx



Carole

#6: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: mahartLocation: Liverpool UK PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:17 pm
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Wow Luca!
You are good.

That is really interesting for me. They where initially Notoro's, Scrivano's, and landowners but by the time you get to me they where seamen and poor but happy.
Many thanks

Ciao
Mark

#7: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: mahartLocation: Liverpool UK PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:33 pm
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Hi Carole,
Thankyou so muchi for your translatioir
I would like to point out that this Mauro Palombella is not my direct line so the incompetence is not passed on, well in my opinion but maybe not in my wife's LOL!
Seriously though is that enumerator's comments on how lazy the man is or does it mean he is no longer competent for work?
It is dark and freezing here in Liverpool but you have brought a smile to my face.

Many thanks

#8: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: MauroMagsLocation: New Jersey PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:34 pm
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I'm confused to where the incompetence comes in??? What is the word that is being translated as incompetent.... I only see Scaparo after Mauro Palombello... Wouldn't that just mean he is a shoemaker?

Or are you referring to Ciccio Palombella (second image) who is incompetent?



And i think Nicolò Gilioli is actually Nicolo Filioli. Filioli is a Molfettesi surname

#9: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: CaroleLocation: Valtellina - Near Lake Como PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:41 pm
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Well - that was a difficult one to decide... at first sight I thought it was to do with shoemaking, but that seemed not to be the case.
The dictionaries I consulted all gave two definitions:

1 BU (little used) persona incapace, incompetente, che esegue male il proprio lavoro
2 RE (regional) roman., borsaiolo

1. Incapable person, incompetent, who carries out his work badly
2. a Roman word, pickpocket


I assumed that he was the first... but I don't know 'who' decided he was so inclined. Perhaps he was (as we say these days) 'a little slow on the uptake'!

BTW - it's dark and cold (-7°C) Sad here in the Alps too... more snow forecast tonight!

Oh - and say hello to your 'Yellow Sheep' for me!
lol

#10: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: CaroleLocation: Valtellina - Near Lake Como PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:47 pm
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MauroMags wrote:
I'm confused to where the incompetence comes in??? What is the word that is being translated as incompetent.... I only see Scaparo after ... Wouldn't that just mean he is a shoemaker?

Or are you referring to Ciccio Palombella (second image) who is incompetent?



And i think Nicolò Gilioli is actually Nicolo Filioli. Filioli is a Molfettesi surname

No Mauro, sorry, but the word following Mauro Palombello's name is
SCARPARO - not Scaparo...

#11: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: LucaLocation: Terni - Italy PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:24 am
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I think that scarparo, at that times, meant shoemaker Wink

Ciao
Luca

#12: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: CaroleLocation: Valtellina - Near Lake Como PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:27 am
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Luca wrote:
I think that scarparo, at that times, meant shoemaker Wink

Ciao
Luca

Well thank goodness! I'm pleased about that....

But the word doesn't show in my dictionaries as a shoemaker, but clearly as I showed above.

Just goes to show what a minefield translating can be!

#13: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: mahartLocation: Liverpool UK PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:44 am
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Hey Guys I think you are all right about those palombella's there is a line later in Molfetta that are shoemakers, so maybe he was incompetent one.
Carole I see you met our Superlambanana (I think that is how you spell it). We have got different coloured ones dotted all over the city as part of the Capitol of Culture year.
And I concede in that your dark and cold probably had more of a bite up their in the Alps but I bet it is also more picturesque in the morning.

Once again many thanks
Ciao
Mark

#14: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: MauroMagsLocation: New Jersey PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:14 pm
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Even today in the Molfettese dialect, "U Scarpàr" means a shoemaker.

My mother still uses the term, when she's referring to a shoemaker... That is when you can find one. It seems like its a dying trade here in the states...

#15: Re: Help with translation of Catasto Onciario extracts Author: nucciaLocation: Toronto, Ontario, Canada PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:56 pm
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Quote::
I think that scarparo, at that times, meant shoemaker Wink

Uhmmm..in our dialect it still does. Embarassed



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