x
Toggle Content Register or Login  -  March 28, 2024, 11:04 am
Toggle Content User Info

Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: LucilleDZ
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 2016

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 154
Total: 154
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: My Account
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: My Account
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: My Account
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: My Account
20: Photo Gallery
21: Statistics
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Statistics
26: Photo Gallery
27: My Account
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: My Account
31: My Account
32: My Account
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Statistics
36: My Account
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: My Account
44: My Account
45: My Account
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: My Account
53: My Account
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Community Forums
66: My Account
67: Photo Gallery
68: My Account
69: Community Forums
70: My Account
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: My Account
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: Statistics
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: My Account
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Statistics
84: Community Forums
85: My Account
86: My Account
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: My Account
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: My Account
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Statistics
101: My Account
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: My Account
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: My Account
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: My Account
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Statistics
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: My Account
126: My Account
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: My Account
133: My Account
134: Community Forums
135: My Account
136: Community Forums
137: Photo Gallery
138: My Account
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: My Account
145: Community Forums
146: Statistics
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: My Account
152: My Account
153: My Account
154: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Toggle Content Main Menu
Toggle Content Last Posts
Last 10 Forum Messages

bocca
Last post by tennino in General Discussion Groups on Jan 16, 2021 at 16:56:41

Towns in Frosinone that were part of former Vatican States a
Last post by Italysearcher in Central Italy on Feb 19, 2019 at 09:15:58

Dual Citizenship
Last post by Curci-Ghio in General Discussion Groups on Nov 18, 2018 at 15:30:54

Please Help Translate Letter
Last post by nuccia in Translations on Oct 20, 2018 at 06:18:43

Family in Cittanova
Last post by russojoseph1 in Translations on Oct 14, 2018 at 12:28:20

DNA Testing
Last post by nuccia in General Discussion Groups on Sep 29, 2018 at 10:39:30

Trento -Atto di Nascita - Frazione di Poia, Comune di Comano
Last post by exevans in Northern Italy on Mar 28, 2018 at 00:45:37

Translating written postcard
Last post by mekanic in Translations on Jan 18, 2018 at 13:58:50

Translating written postcard
Last post by mekanic in Translations on Jan 18, 2018 at 13:53:38

State of the Family Record & Other State Records
Last post by debbiemfit in Northern Italy on Jan 02, 2018 at 23:14:28

Toggle Content Help Support this Site
Please support GentediMareGenealogy
Help us by supporting the future development of this site, or simply to say thank you.
Toggle Content EStore
Community Forums › General › General Discussion Groups › Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini...

     Forum FAQ   Search   Log in to check your private messages   Login  
Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini...
Want to share something new or just have fun? You can do that here.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index General Discussion Groups Printer Friendly Page

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JamesBianco
Researcher
Researcher


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 645
Location: Westfield, MA.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

When I was in Carini i 2005, I went to The Stato and (with my guide) tried to obtain the record of birth for my Great-Grandmother Giuseppa Marciano. The office found and copied this document from The Anagrafe books for her family :

Antonino Marciano and Family Anagrafe

About two months ago I wrote to Carini in the hopes that I could obtain the same for Giuseppa's husband Antonino Leone, also born in Carini (my great-grandfather). Instead today I received this handwritten document which was "abstracted" from the detailed record (see image above) like the one I obtained when I was there 3 years ago.

Vincenzo Leone and Family Storico

The information is incorrect in Five places, Four dates are wrong to begin with, things are crossed out, and I am very dissapointed (I sent quite a bit of money with my request). I just wanted to let everyone know who receives a "Storico" that it is in fact a very rough (and summarized) transcription of an Anagrafe, and depending on the Stato employee, may be quite flawed in content. (I will mention that the record I received when I was there for my Giuseppa matches completely with the original records)

For example... (the dates were wrong)
Vincenzo Leone was born (I have his birth act) Sep 10, 1849
Antonino Leone was born (I have his birth act) May 13, 1887
Rosalia Leone was born (I have her birth act) March 19, 1885
Salvatore Leone was born (I have his birth act) May 23, 1891


Sad

_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Carole
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 1662
Location: Valtellina - Near Lake Como

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

James, that is dreadful, but I must admit does not surprise me in the least. For what it's worth, my advice would be to photocopy what you received and send that (with the errors highlighted), with your written complaint, to the Mayor of Carini.

These 'state clerks' should take far more care with such documents but alas....

Be aware though, that with nepotism being as rife as it is within the job market here in Italy, it could be that the clerk in question is related to the Mayor or one of his officers anyway. But the Mayor should at least ensure that you are provided with an accurate copy of the document you PAID for - and make clear in your complaint just HOW MUCH money you sent!

_________________

Researching: EDMED, SAVILL, TYSON, NEWCOMBE, STAPLETON, GUNTER, STAPLES
If you think education is expensive -try ignorance!

>Expats in Italy<
Come and join 'Dork and Friends'! >New Blog<
Back to top
View user's profile
Robert
Explorer
Explorer


Joined: Jul 12, 2008
Posts: 55
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

Carole wrote:
James, that is dreadful, but I must admit does not surprise me in the least. For what it's worth, my advice would be to photocopy what you received and send that (with the errors highlighted), with your written complaint, to the Mayor of Carini.

These 'state clerks' should take far more care with such documents but alas....

Be aware though, that with nepotism being as rife as it is within the job market here in Italy, it could be that the clerk in question is related to the Mayor or one of his officers anyway. But the Mayor should at least ensure that you are provided with an accurate copy of the document you PAID for - and make clear in your complaint just HOW MUCH money you sent!

When my family made our application for Italian citizenship the documents were thrown out twice due to inaccurate recording of dates and names. The problem does seem to be rife and you do wonder how hard it could be to copy over data?

Worth following up in the manner suggested by Carole, especially as you paid for the service. Am impressed that they released the docs at all - when I tried to get a birth cert in Italy they would not issue it to me (I was present) as I could not prove definitively that the person in question was a relation. At that stage of my research that was quite a difficult thing to do. Later on I used a professional researcher and there was no problem getting the docs released.

_________________
Researching: Amato, Vergottini, Zazzaretta
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
nuccia
Admin
Admin


Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Posts: 4375
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

Man James..that stinks! All that money and having to wait so long and then you get the wrong info anyway! How about requesting the document again..without sending money and see what happens..

_________________
nuccia
Italian Surname Database

Calabria Exchange
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Cathy
V.I.P.
V.I.P.


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 2681

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

I'd say its time to go back to Carini and give them a piece of your mind! Wink Sorry for your disappointment. Sad

_________________
Cathy
My Websites
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Italysearcher
Researcher
Researcher


Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 219
Location: Sora, Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

Before you write the complaint letter, bear in mind that it could have been the person who recorded the original document that screwed up, not the clerk who copied the record for you!
It has been my experience that the 'scheda di familglia' that this was copied from was often prepared from verbal information given by persons present at the time (much like our census) so the information is not reliable.

_________________
Ann Tatangelo
angelresearch.wordpress.com
Author of Annoying the Saints - Stories of my life in Italy. www.lulu.com/content/p...ly/7731505
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
JamesBianco
Researcher
Researcher


Joined: Jul 10, 2007
Posts: 645
Location: Westfield, MA.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

I have no intention of writing a complaint letter. If you look at the Anagrafe I posted at the top (I have two more which are identical to that format from other Great-Grandparents) you will see what she had to work with.

There are dozens of volumes of these oversized books in each Comune (whether they have survived for every comune is another issue, but they did exist as far north as Belluno, and as far south as Palermo, using the same standard printed form).

Every date matches, along with details of who each child married and a reference to the book and page where you can find the child's anagrafe. The dates were not given verbally, there is a citation next to each date with the folio number of the original record of birth, marriage and death.

I realize very very few researchers, even in Italy are familiar with the Anagrafe, because very little has been published on their content (and what has been published tends to be erroneous)

_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Italysearcher
Researcher
Researcher


Joined: Jan 22, 2008
Posts: 219
Location: Sora, Italy

PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting yet disappointing letter from Carini... Reply with quote

James, I did not look at your 'anagrafe' photo before responding. I work with these documents all the time. You need to remember that when they were initiated around 1865 dates were recorded as they are in a census, by information given by the family member and are frequently off. After that date, the book was used to maintain an ongoing 'stato di famiglia' in the town, so these dates were recorded as they happened. The birth was registered and then recorded in the 'book'. Same with marriages. Things are often crossed out because the person got married and was moved to another page, usually that of their in-laws, or to the USA or another town. They did not survive in every town and they do take different forms in some towns.

_________________
Ann Tatangelo
angelresearch.wordpress.com
Author of Annoying the Saints - Stories of my life in Italy. www.lulu.com/content/p...ly/7731505
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
  Page 1 of 1All times are GMT - 4 Hours

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index General Discussion Groups Printer Friendly Page

  
 
Jump to:  



You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Hosted By Site5.com
The logos and trademarks used on this site are the property of Gente di Mare Genealogy.
We are not responsible for comments posted by our users, as they are the opinions of the poster.
Interactive software released under GNU GPL, Code Credits, Privacy Policy
TCD_ItalianGene © Gente di Mare Genealogy