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Community Forums › They Came in Boats › Where do I begin? › Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date

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Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date
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cresthaven2
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Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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Location: Hudson Valley NY

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

Crying or Very sad I think I posted this on Music by mistake. Well after the fiasco at our visit to the NYC Italian Consulate in May and several letters of complaint regarding our treatment there, I am still trying to find out how to address one of the two problems we face. The first is with regard to the Italian record of birth for grandfather which is listed as 8 February 1864. All of his US records including Alien Registration Form and Card list his date of birth as 3 February 1864. The Consulate is asking that I have all the US records changed to show their date of 8 February. I know that some consulates will accept a baptismal certificate but they won't. I would consider this a minor discrepency as the month, year, name of parents and town where born are all the same. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to address this issue? I am trying to get a copy of his baptismal certificate from San Michele as well as a copy of his military records as he served three years in the Italian infantry.
Thank you, Carol
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Carole
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

Hi Carol,
I've deleted your duplicate post so don't worry.

Now for your problem(s) with NY Consulate - as I already know about them I really feel for you. Your treatment was abominable, but it seems to have set the tone.

Now this is just a 'glimmer' of a thought in my mind...... Just suppose that translated copies of everything, including your written plea that this is the same person, were put before a judge [sorry, I forgot to say - IN ITALY] - (by the translator) for 'asseveramento'? And then suppose that the Italian authorities would accept - on presentation of all his sworn documents - that he is the same person?

An asseveramento is where the translator swears on oath before a Justice of the Peace (or a Notary...but more expensive) to the validity of the translation and this is customary in Italy.

Of course, this certification does NOT mean that NY will accept the plea - BUT if the translation and 'asseveramento' fully stamped and legal was sent to his birth town (maybe by the translator) then they might accept it as 'true' and issue a letter to that effect which NY would HAVE to accept? After all - it is the role of every Consulate has to check the paperwork/documentation and then send it to the pertinent Comune in Italy for'ratification'. This would just be jumping the gun (a little Rolling Eyes ) on one part of the process. NY would still have to submit it to them...

Now don't get me wrong - I don't know that it would work, but I often have to 'swear on oath' before a JP that my translations are true and valid and they are then presented to the Italian authorites, and without exception they are accepted even following some heated disputes beforehand. It seem that the 'oath before a judge (as is customary in Italy) makes most things 'acceptable'.

Anybody else got any ideas that might help Carol here????

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Last edited by Carole on Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tangobunny
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

Carole wrote:
Hi Carol,
I've deleted your duplicate post so don't worry.

Now for your problem(s) with NY Consulate - as I already know about them I really feel for you. Your treatment was abominable, but it seems to have set the tone.

Now this is just a 'glimmer' of a thought in my mind...... Just suppose that translated copies of everything, including your written plea that this is the same person, were put before a judge (by the translator) for 'asseveramento'? And then suppose that the Italian authorities would accept - on presentation of all his sworn documents - that he is the same person?

An asseveramento is where the translator swears on oath before a Justice of the Peace (or a Notary...but more expensive) to the validity of the translation and this is customary in Italy.

Of course, this certification does NOT mean that NY will accept the plea - BUT if the translation and 'asseveramento' fully stamped and legal was sent to his birth town (maybe by the translator) then they might accept it as 'true' and issue a letter to that effect which NY would HAVE to accept? After all - it is the role of every Consulate has to check the paperwork/documentation and then send it to the pertinent Comune in Italy for'ratification'. This would just be jumping the gun (a little Rolling Eyes ) on one part of the process. NY would still have to submit it to them...

Now don't get me wrong - I don't know that it would work, but I often have to 'swear on oath' before a JP that my translations are true and valid and they are then presented to the Italian authorites, and without exception they are accepted even following some heated disputes beforehand. It seem that the 'oath before a judge (as is customary in Italy) makes most things 'acceptable'.

Anybody else got any ideas that might help Carol here????

Hi everyone i am new: I had my own appt. at nyc consulate, probably had the same guy! He is getting quite the reputation. Anyway, on my GF's nat. certificate his birthday is 1 day off. My dad's (direct line) is 3 days off--a 9 was flipped around to a 6! the official (triiumphantly) rejected the document saying he thinks it could belong to another B***** G********* who was born 1 day after my papa in the tiny sicilian town of c*****who also married a woman with the exact same name as my grandma and had the same number and named children!!! Shocked COME ON!! He claimed that if he sent the document to the comune they would reject it. And he told me I have to get a judge's order. Not feasible for me (see below)So it turns out I have a cousin who works in the comune and I am writing to her to have her do an archive search. FOR SURE it will turn up no duplicate B*****G********* with all of the above matching dates, names, etc.!! I am requesting that an official letter be sent to our friend's supervisor at the nyc consulate. If they STILL refuse the document on my follow up visit in July I am going to have prepared ahead of time a formal protest outlining my case. I will deposit one copy with the supervisor of citizenship, send the original to the Consulate General, one copy to whomever it is in Washington D.C. who has relations with these embassies and allows their presence in the U.S. with the understanding that one of their missions is to JUDICIOUSLY serve Italian citizens in the U.S. (and as much as the italian government hates it right now, legitimate descendants of Italian citizens ARE considered to be Italian citizens as well and we have a right to claim it, per Italian Jure Sanguinis law, until the law is changed!), and of course keep one copy for myself. It's one thing to be denied for legitimate document problems, but this abusiveness--this refusal to consider the entire picture/the proponderence of evidence presented that one has a legitimate right to their citizenship?? Unacceptable and outrageous. I think every person who has been mistreated this way should do exactly what I plan to do should I not be successful. Finally, I am presenting a statement to the supervisor that I will ask her to sign stating that she is aware that I am filing a formal complaint with her bosses. One other thing is, I am actually moving to italy on July 20th. If it doesn't work out here, I will establish residency in my grandfather's comune, obtain a permesso di soggiorno in attesa cittadinanza and get my citizenship over there!! If they won't let me in through the front door then I will get in through the back! But I WILL get in!
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Carole
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

So - yet another victim of this 'new' guy in the NY Consulate. His attitude belies belief doesn't it?


But on this question - PLEASE NOTE that I have made an amendment to my post above. Having re-read it I realised that I hadn't made it clear that I was talking about Italy and about me getting the 'asseveramento' from an Italian Justice of the Peace.

I suggested this as I am aware of the difficulties there are in getting the US people to alter their mistakes.

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nuccia
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

Wow..all this nonsense over a birthdate. By now you figure they would know that I don't think one Italian immigrant had the correct birthdate on their American papers. I have been doing this for several years now and honestly, I doubt but one or two matched up with their Italian records.

I hope you both get this straightened up. I wish I had an answer but I don't..

tangobunny..thanks for sharing your ideas with us. Between you and Carole, it's possible that Carol has some options and others may be willing to also do as you do. Hope to hear from you again before your move and certainly afterwards. I want to hear how you make out.

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cresthaven2
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Location: Hudson Valley NY

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

thought I would bring you up-do-date on my run-in at the NYC Consulate - his name was Emilio de Francesco. I was so angry when I left smoke was coming out of my ears! When I got back home I first contact NFIA since I am a member - they gave the name of a woman in the Washington DC consulate. She gave me the name of Eva Barone (eva.barone@esteri.it) who is the head of the Vital Records Citizenship office at the NYC consulate. Iwrote her a five page letter of complaint especially emphasizing the treatment we received by this "gentleman" (I use the term loosely) and the fact he never even looked at or asked for all the documentaion THEY request on their own website! She wrote me back and (1) never even mentioned the behavior of their consular - instead she sends me a "List of Remarks" which incuded: first (x) names on the certificates and documents do NOT match - this is in reference to the five days difference in birth date of the grandfather. Second (x) letter of "no naturalziation records" issued, etc. - and this is after I gave him the certified letter along with copies of his Alien Registration Form and card!
Third (x) you are required to provide an official statement from a Court Judge to be requested from the Vital Statistics Office declaring the date of birth of John lauarito and the names of his parents and their dates of birth. So I contacted Vital Statistics, told them what was required and their response was: "Sorry -- this is not something we are familiar with -- generally, we suggest that you confirm with the office/entity that requires you provide the proof of birth what other evidence will be acceptable in the case where there is no civil record on file. We know that many of our patrons have obtained dual citizenships when there is no civil birth record (a very common situation) -- and we have never heard of anyone having to obtain a "court issued birth certificate." I just wrote Ms. Barone my third letter. I think if more people complain to Ms. Barone, something will have to be done to help us. I will keep you posted as to what happens next!
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nuccia
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

This is incredible! I love the "pass the buck, ignore the issue" attitude. I do recommend this to anyone applying for dual citizenship though...make copies of everything- especially your own documents (birth, marriage certificates, etc). I have heard of so many horror stories where documents go missing so whenever possible, apply for an extra set. Protect yourself. And if you have to send anything in the mail, make sure you send it registered with an acknowledge of receipt card attached. Not sure why the process is so complicated but this people are definitely making it harder than it really needs to be.

Thanks for providing the name of your contacts, Carol. I hope others with find it helpful. Smile

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cresthaven2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Duel Citizenship Problem with Birth Date Reply with quote

I would like to add one thing: whenever one goes to the consulate, especially in NYC, for their appointment, whether the person handling their case is nice or not, always ask for their name. Most important.
Second, document everything that went on at that appointment as soon as you can.
Third, write letters - and send each of them by email followed up by a hardcopy sent by mail. This is so far from over. And I do not intend to make another appointment to wait over a year to get some answers. That's nonsense.
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