Help with translation

tjbrn · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: Help with translation

This marriage document is a bit confusing. It appears as if both bride and groom have the same surname.

liviomoreno · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Help with translation

Apparently everybody is a Limandri!

Groom: Domenico Limandri, widower of Catarina Morici, son of the deceased Giovanni and of the living Flavia Limandri.
Bride: Maria Limandri, single (schetta), daughter of Gio Batta and Anna Limandri.

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Help with translation

Thanks, Livio. I needed confirmation from someone skilled at translation. I've discovered a number of ancestors and possible ancestors in the church records from Monreale posted on FamilySearch.org and it is very slow going with my limited ability in Italian and Latin.

mary · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Help with translation

Livio, I'm curious -- the bottom notation on the left hand side says something about ".......terzo grado di consanguinita' ". What exactly does it mean. I've seen this before, but haven't been able to figure out how far back their ancestors were related.

Mary

liviomoreno · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Help with translation

mary wrote:

Livio, I'm curious -- the bottom notation on the left hand side says something about ".......terzo grado di consanguinita' ". What exactly does it mean. I've seen this before, but haven't been able to figure out how far back their ancestors were related.

Mary

I cannot decipher it thoroughly but it has to do about blood relationship (consanguineità). "Terzo grado", I believe, I believe, is first cousins. The groom and the bride may be children of two brothers and to get married they need a special clearance. The sentence beginning at the end of the 2nd line reads: "Stante la dispensa ottenuta da Mons: D: Alfonso Airoli Giudice della Apostolica Legazia in questo Regno di Sicilia in data delle 19 Nov 13xx 1809". ="Taking in consideration the dispensation obtained by Mons. Don Alfonso Airoli..."

This would explain the same surname!

Poipu04 · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Help with translation

I found this link to a book on consanguinity and it seems that third grade can be second cousins depending on which system you use to measure. Another system says that it is the relation between an uncle and a niece (let's hope it is not that case here!)

books.google.com/books...ty&f=false

I have a copy of the ledger page from the Church in NY where my ggf was married and there is a notation near another couple married on the same day that they were 2d degree of consanguinity and needed a dispensation.

liviomoreno · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Help with translation

I doubt that the Church uses the German method...
I've done a further research and the third degree is Uncle-Niece! The marriage is forbidden according to art #1091 Diritto Canonico.
This link shows a form, which is still used, to request the dispensation: www.vicariatusurbis.or...m%2014.pdf

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Help with translation

Looks as if I've discovered Pandora's box! There are so many Li Mandri's and Lo Vecchio's in the records from Monreale I am still struggling to make connections that I can support with a degree of certainty. I've traced the above surnames from San Giuseppe Jato which is the birth place of my grandmother. Establishing concrete familial links is proving to be quite a challenge.

If nothing, genealogy is filled with twists and turns and is almost always interesting. Thanks for all of the contributions.

Poipu04 · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Help with translation

liviomoreno wrote:

I doubt that the Church uses the German method...
I've done a further research and the third degree is Uncle-Niece! The marriage is forbidden according to art #1091 Diritto Canonico.
This link shows a form, which is still used, to request the dispensation: www.vicariatusurbis.or...m%2014.pdf

Oh, dear! I suppose society was very different back then!

mary · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Help with translation

Thanks, everyone, for the insight. Fascinating.

I have the same problem with my ancestors. They were all from the same tiny town, and I keep coming up with the same 4-5 names over and over.

Mary