Cathy, yes, if you can do that for me with the avatar, I would appreciate it. I am finally upgrading my computer so I won't have to bother you any more! I missed the Fed Ex delivery, so we will have to wait until the weekend to pick it up because we have to sign for it. Then, I hope to be online at home with DSL or cable soon.

I am so sorry to hear about the cemetery situation. I have read in books that it is the practice in many towns in Italy to do this...that you only rent your grave for a term of years. I think what you are doing with your website is a living tribute, so even if there is no longer a grave, you really are honoring them. Take heart in that. Plus, you can always light a candle in their church when you visit your ancestral town. I had no time (we had only a short visit), so that is what I did.

OMG Cathy.....nothing any of us can say will make you feel better today. That is a terrible thing. I can't imagine that. I am so sorry. I can't make it better, but I can be a friend if you need one.

I'm sorry for your feelings, I understand when somebody is stuck in the genealogy.
We are all with you
hugs Riccardo

Cathy wrote:

Poipu04 wrote: Ah, Cathy, the elusive pic of our ggf! I am hoping my new cousin in Italy will have one as well. Of course, at this point, if I could even have a pic of one of the ggf's brothers, that would be fulfilling. Unfortunately, Riccardo emailed me news today that has dramtically cut my chances of ever seeing their pictures - on a grave anyway. I always thought there was a good chance at the least I would visit one day and see their pictures on their headstones. They were not poor so they would have had the money. When my Argentinian cousin sent me those pictures of my grandfather's uncle, that only encouraged those thoughts. Riccardo told me today, all graves were removed to make a place for new graves. The bones were all put in a mass grave and the headstones are gone. Today, my heart is broken - I will never be able to place a wreath on their grave and pay my proper respects. This was really important to me - perhaps because all my relatives have moved away and I am the caretaker of our family graves. Today I am sad. But tomorrow I will request documents and hopefully, I will be able to find the children or grandchildren of my grandfather's brother and sisters! And if I am persistent, one day, I will be able to hand my father a picture of his grandparents!

But Cathy there could still be a photograph on their 'ossary'. In one sense Riccardo is right - any grave will almost certainly be gone by now.

Let me explain:
When someone dies they are buried and a headstone is placed over their grave. That is their grave (unless the family have their own private tomb) for a period of ten years. At that point the bones are disinterred in the presence of a priest and any family who wish to be present and the remains are placed into an 'ossary' which is a small box which is then placed into a wall within the cemetary. Names, dates and a photograph are usually placed on the piece of marble which seals this in the wall...
Here is a sample of what they are like.



This link may be of some use too - if you haven't already seen it!
CEMETARY RECORDS IN ITALY

ricbru wrote:

I'm sorry for your feelings, I understand when somebody is stuck in the genealogy. We are all with you hugs Riccardo

You are so wonderful for finding that out for me. I am most grateful to find out now and not on that wondeful day when I finally walk into Montalto Uffugo. Who knows, maybe Carole is right - maybe there is a family crypt. I doubt it, but, it is possible. I will not let this slow me down from my searches. If I am meant to find something, (like pictures or people) I will find it, if not, all these people are in my heart and nothing can take that away! I cannot believe how attached I have become to these strangers. My poor great grandmother seemed to have such a tragic life, I only wish I could know about her joys. I really don't need a gravesite to honor them - I do that every time I think about them. Thank you all for listening to me whine and most of all for your support.

I saw something like Carole states in Palermo cemetery, but how people working in Montalto Uffugo stated, I understood that all the bones are in a big, huge common grave side on the ground, and there is not tombstone.
Riccardo

I am sorry to hear that Cathy, you can still leave something on the big grave because your whole town is related to you so you can hit everyone at once.Umm Riccardo, would it be possible to find out if there are any graves left of my family if I gave you a date of someone? Just a thought.

Mike

Hey Mike, that is a great way of taking a frown and turning it upside down!

Ya know..when I was young and first married, we were friends with this couple. The wife came here from somewhere in Benevento in the early 50s as a child. We used to talk about Italy all of the time..and she would tell us about this..only her story was..something like..you dont keep your grave there. They take you out and put your bones in a cave with everyone elses bones. Then she would talk about some guy who polished the bones. (Because of this last part, I never believed a word she said.)

Anyway..I was horrified at the thought. Why do they do that? Why cant they let the dead rest in peace? When I see pictures..it certainly doesnt look like they lack space. We have room for all of our dead people..why dont they?

Quote::

Eleven said: "Anyway..I was horrified at the thought. Why do they do that? Why cant they let the dead rest in peace? When I see pictures..it certainly doesnt look like they lack space. We have room for all of our dead people..why dont they?"

I too was horrified when this was explained to me many years ago at my first Italian funeral.... my sentiments were an exact mirror image of yours.

But as time has gone on I have begun to undertsand some of the complexities and the reasons for such rites. Let me try and explain it as I understand it - and please accept that this is my personal take on it - not a religeous or legal one.

Italy is a small country with a population that has been increasing over recent centuries. It does not have the luxury of unlimited 'spare' land for things other than supporting its economy - whether that be from animals, agriculture or manufacturing. Much of the country is covered in moutainous or arid areas and is totally unsuitable for such things as unlimited burial plots - but as such is usuitable for anything else either.

The Catholic church has for centuries considered and countenanced that cremation is a sin - therefore burial was the only choice. But that raised the question of space for centuries of graves. In many western christian nations a grave space is used for maybe 100 years and is then used again - and again. the previous 'departed' are just left where they were buried and another is put above them. But equally in such countries - cremation has been an accepted practice over centuries too.

Here in Italy there was never going to be sufficient room for every person to have their own 8x4x6ft deep plot for ever..... it could just never work. In fact in cities like Milan (which I can quote) there are two huge cemetaries (plus lots of smaller ones too), they are:

The Monumentale


The Maggiore


This second one is so large that there is an internal bus service to take you to the graves and there are about ten different bus stops on the main thoroughfares. One part is dedicated to large family tombs and the remainder to 'normal' but very beautiful graves. These have a tenure of only 10 years and then, as I explained their bones are removed with all dignity and ceremony to a wall grave. Your church I believe does maintain that the spirit leaves the body at the moment of passing - so disinterment and reburial is acceptable I believe in such circumstances.

If this didn't happen in large cities there would be huge space problems, but it also happens elsewhere. In my village for example they have the same usance and there are only just 1020 people here. The cemetary is tiny, but has recently been enlarged for more wall space.

The Italian mentality that I see, is quite content to accept this rite as normal practice. They do not seem to worry at all about moving their loved ones after 10 years.

I'm sorry if I rambled here - but I thought it was worth an insight into what must seem heartless to many.

Sorry I forgot to add in reply to this: "When I see pictures..it certainly doesnt look like they lack space. We have room for all of our dead people..why dont they?"

Italy covers 116,000 square miles.
Compare that to just Texas which covers 261,000 square miles....

So Italy would fit into Texas 2.25 times.... that's maybe why there's not enough land... Food for thought!

I see your point.

I am glad my people boarded the boat.

Well all, there is no doubt n my mind what-so0ever on 2 things:
1.Riccardo is a God.
2.Gente has kept the lucky streak!

I asked Riccardo to call and see if there is anything in my Comune's cemetery on my great great grandmother... and he did. Now while it isn't 100% I am quite sure she still has a stone up . Riccardo said the man he spoke to said the cemetery was small and that all the graves are still there. . I need to fax the man at the office and he will look for me. I am so happy I could burst. I want to get to Castiglione and put flowers on this woman's grave and give her the proper respect....who knows she might even be buried with her parents whe died after her. Whoo hoo more dates! Hey anyone got a fax ? Thank you Riccardo without you I never would have been able to do that.

A very happy,
Mike

Hi, I am trying to get my great grandmothers marriage certificate from N.Y.S. so I can apply for dual citizenship but they ask for a judicial or other proper purpose. Has anybody ran into this before? If so please let me know how to go on. Thanks