Help translating document

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject: Help translating document

I am having trouble translating some of this document and hope someone will be able to help. I am unable to read Vencenza's surname or Gaetano La Rocca's wife's name. I believe Gaetano La Rocca is deceased. I am also uncertain of the ages and occupations listed. OK, I admit I need a lot of help with this Embarassed

img15.imageshack.us/im...at1832.jpg

Luca · Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

L’anno 1832, il dì 6 del mese di Gennaio alle ore 23 [seguivano un calcolo delle ore non corrispondente a quello moderno, per cui non si tratta delle attuali 11 p.m.], avanti di noi Antonino Diliberto Sindaco ed Ufficiale dello Stato Civile del Comune di Belmonte, distretto di Palermo, valle di Palermo, sono comparsi nella casa comunale Ignazio Dragotto, di anni 24 nato in Belmonte, distretto di Palermo, valle di Palermo di professione contadino, domiciliato in Belmonte, figlio di Gaspare Dragotto di anni 50, di professione bordonaio, domiciliato in questo sudetto Comune, e di Vincenza Martorana di anni 46 domiciliata quivi, ed Andriana(!) La Rocca di anni 22, nata in Belmonte, domiciliata quivi, figlia del fu Gaetano La Rocca e di Marianna Ribaudo di anni 40, domiciliata quivi…

Ciao
Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Grazie, Luca. What is bordonaio? And I am curious about this: Andriana(!)

Carole · Last edited by Carole on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total

Luca wrote:

L’anno 1832, il dì 6 del mese di Gennaio alle ore 23 [seguivano un calcolo delle ore non corrispondente a quello moderno, per cui non si tratta delle attuali 11 p.m.], avanti di noi Antonino Diliberto Sindaco ed Ufficiale dello Stato Civile del Comune di Belmonte, distretto di Palermo, valle di Palermo, sono comparsi nella casa comunale Ignazio Dragotto, di anni 24 nato in Belmonte, distretto di Palermo, valle di Palermo di professione contadino, domiciliato in Belmonte, figlio di Gaspare Dragotto di anni 50, di professione bordonaio, domiciliato in questo sudetto Comune, e di Vincenza Martorana di anni 46 domiciliata quivi, ed Andriana(!) La Rocca di anni 22, nata in Belmonte, domiciliata quivi, figlia del fu Gaetano La Rocca e di Marianna Ribaudo di anni 40, domiciliata quivi…

Ciao
Luca

Translation

In the year of 1832, the 6th day of the month of January at the 23rd hour (here follows a calulation of the hour corresponding to modern time, and for that reason you are not dealing with the actual 11pm) before me Antonino Diliberto Mayor and State Registrar of the Comune of Belmonte, in the District of Palermo, Palermo valley there appeared in the town hall Ignazio Dragotto, aged 24 born in Belmonte, District of Palermo, Palermo valley son of Gaspare Dragotto aged 50 by professione fisherman**, resident in the above named Comune, and of Vincenza Martorana aged 46 resident here too, and Andriana(!) La Rocca aged 22, born in Belmonte, residente here as well, daughter of the late Gaetano La Rocca and of Marianna Ribaudo aged 40, also resident here...

**bordonaio=abbrev. of bordonario = fisherman

Carole

Luca · Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Ottimo Carole. Nella traduzione hai però saltato un piccolissimo pezzo: "ed Andriana(!) La Rocca di anni 22, nata in Belmonte, domiciliata quivi," Wink

L.

Carole · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Luca wrote:

Ottimo Carole. Nella traduzione hai però saltato un piccolissimo pezzo: "ed Andriana(!) La Rocca di anni 22, nata in Belmonte, domiciliata quivi," Wink

L.

Ooops... sorry. Embarassed

Now corrected!

Luca · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

And I am curious about this: Andriana(!)

I'm not sure of the correct spelling of that name: maybe it's written Andreana and not Andriana. This a page in italian about the name: www.umbriain.it/nomi/andrea.htm

Ciao
Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Thanks Carole and Luca, as always you make a great team!

I found another document dated five years later.

img193.imageshack.us/i/1837id.jpg/

This leads one to believe that the first wife died. At least some of the ages seem to advance appropriately on the ones that I am able to read.

Luca · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

L’anno 1837, il dì 21 del mese di Gennaio alle ore 24 avanti di noi Agostino Ritti Sindaco ed Ufficiale dello Stato Civile del Comune di Belmonte, distretto di Palermo, valle di Palermo, sono comparsi nella casa comunale Ignazio Dragotto, di anni 28 nato in Belmonte, distretto di Palermo, valle di Palermo di professione contadino, domiciliato in Belmonte, figlio di Gaspare Dragotto di anni 55, di professione contadino, domiciliato in questo sudetto Comune, e di Vincenza Martorana in Dragotto di anni 50 domiciliata quivi, e Stefana di Paola di anni 20, nata in Belmonte, domiciliata quivi, figlia di Giovanni di Paola di anni 50 di professione contadino, domiciliato in questo comune, e della fu Felicia di Literno(!)...

If you have the films concerning the marriages in Belmonte of the years 1832-1836, then you can verify if Ignazio remarried in the meantime. As an alternative, you can check the death records to find if Andreana really died after that birth.

Luca

Luca · Last edited by Luca on Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:36 pm; edited 2 times in total

I'm not sure about the word bordonaio. It doesn't seem to be fisherman but, maybe, "conduttore di muli" ( tlio.ovi.cnr.it/voci/006428.htm ) Confused

L.

edit to correct the link.

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Luca, am I correct in assuming that these documents are only a promise to marry, a betrothal so without a marriage certificate to corroborate the event I cannot assume that the two who are betrothed ever married. At least they identify Ignazio's parents.

Luca · Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Luca wrote:

.. As an alternative, you can check the death records to find if Andreana really died after that birth.

Sorry, i writed birth instead of marriage!!!

To reply to your question: no, it's not only a promise to marry, because on the right column it's said:

L'anno 1832, il dì 8 del mese di gennaio il parroco di questa chiesa matrice ci ha rimessa una delle copie della controscritta [= scritta accanto] promessa, in pié della quale [= in fondo alla quale] ha certificato che la celebrazione del matrimonio è seguita nel giorno 8 del mese di gennaio 1832 alla presenza dei testimoni

So the marriage took place in the day 8 of the same month of january 1832.

Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

Thanks, Luca. I'll begin searching to see if the records you mentioned are available. Meanwhile, I have a marriage document for Ignazio sister, Gaetana--that was my mother's name as well. I believe the groom's name is Mazzola but I cannot decipher his given name and I am also uncertain of his mother's name. I am also curious about the way the wife's name is listed on some of these documents, for example: Saveria Chi!!! in Mazzola

img233.imageshack.us/i...gotto.jpg/

Luca · Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Help translating document

tjbrn wrote:

... but I cannot decipher his given name
So do I Rolling Eyes

and I am also uncertain of his mother's name.
Maybe, Saveria [or Rosaria... but i think you are right: Saveria] Chinnici in Mazzola

I am also curious about the way the wife's name is listed on some of these documents, for example: Saveria Chi!!! in Mazzola
It's only a way to say that she was the "legal" wife of Gaetano, and that his son was not born "out of marriage"

Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Help translating document

The following marriage document of Nicolo Dragotto and Teresa Italiano contains considerable information in the script at the bottom of the document which I don't understand. I am also having difficulty with Teresa Italiano's mother's surname.

I'm sorry to be such a bother but I have launched back into my genealogy efforts with renewed interest after a rather long period of inactivity and while I am am to translate marginally better, I still cannot decipher the handwriting with any consistency.

img253.imageshack.us/i...iager.jpg/