Not sure what this means?

Emmy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 11, 2007 Posts: 1000 Location: Scotland

I have just noticed on 3 birth acts I have been recording that it says after domicialato (where the father lives) it usually only has 'Sant'Elia' but on those three after 'Sant'Elia' it has ' ivia Ricetto delle Cogzoia(Crosiasa) nor sure of the spelling of the last word and I dont have an image to post the document here.
Could this perhaps be the name of a 'frazione' (another small village in Sant'Elia?) normally if they were saying 'recorded as above' it would have said 'come sopra' but its defiantely not that.

The 2nd thing that's puzzling me:
Normally the father's name is at the beginning of the birth act. On this one
at the beginning of the document where the father's name would be its the name of the midwife. Is this normal? The only other time I've noticed this is when the child had no father mentioned.
Then where it gives the name of the mother it gives a father's name then says Marito della (and it looks like another name after it ? Maria? which is not the name of the mother) on all the others it has said 'leggittima' regarding the mother and father being married., could this perhaps be that the father was married to someone else but was owning up to the fact this was his child? or was that not done ? would it have been registered as Niente Padre?
Just very curious, grateful for any suggestions.
Emmy

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

Hi Em,

Can't help with the first item but the second item about the midwife - I've found that on several of my relatives birth acts and where you say fathers name then marito that means married and then the wifes name. I have it both ways on my doc's either married or leggitima.

liviomoreno · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Not sure what this means?

The person mentioned at teh begenning of the document is the person tha goes to the Mayor to announce the birth of a child. Usually it is the father and when the father is absent it could be the midwife or any other person.
Without a picture of the act it si difficult to answer the rest of your questions...

Emmy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 11, 2007 Posts: 1000 Location: Scotland

Thank you both for the information.
The problem I had Elizabeth, is that the woman's name that follows 'Marito della ---?' is not the name of the woman who has given birth to the child.?? that's what made me think that the father of this child may already be married to someone else - (maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree Smile

)
Emmy

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

No way you can get the image scanned? I'd sure like to see it. Maybe your local library has a scanner and could scan the document and put it on a cd for you? Like Livio says, it's hard to say without seeing. I'll look over some of my other birth acts and see if I have any like your talking about.

Emmy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 11, 2007 Posts: 1000 Location: Scotland

I'll try to take a photograph of it with my digital camera and scann it when I get home. No facilities like that available at my FHC Crying or Very sad

Emmy

Cathy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 2681

Emmy,
I have tons of birth acts where the name at the top is not the father but the midwife. Midwives were not always used (they were not free after all) and I have noticed that they most often used when the mother was older, the husband was away or the mother died shortly after the baby's birth. If the husband was away it was noted on the birth act. I have re-read many of these today after reading your post yesterday. The usual term (legitimate spouse) was not on any of them. The birth acts I looked at were all "legitimate spouses" so I am thinking the usual terminology was changed on these where a midwife was used. On the birth acts where the mother was not the legitimate spouse the mother's name and the father's name were not put on the document but listed as unknown.

Emmy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 11, 2007 Posts: 1000 Location: Scotland

I've just discovered I did have a copy of that birth act - After it gives the mother's name then husband's name its what's written after the husband's name 'marito della ?' I would like to be definate about. At first I thought could it be 'legittima' but the letters dont fit in. and the word after 'marito' begins with a 'd' (it matches up with other 'd' on the document and the third word seems to begin with an 'M'

Would you also please try to make out what it says in the part where the husband is living. after his name it says 'domicialato???????????' definately doesnt say Sant'Elia!

Many Thanks

Carole · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Not sure what this means?

Sorry Emmy, but for my eysight it is too blurry. I tried copying it to Word and downsizing to see if it was clearer, but I'm agraid my old 'peepers' aren't what they used to be Embarassed

.

I'll leave it to the 'young 'uns' - I'm sure they will be able to help!

nuccia · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Not sure what this means?

I've just spoken to Emmy and she is going to email me the document to see if I can link it any better. I'm curious to see what it says now.

nuccia · Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Not sure what this means?

Well I've just about tried everything. I even installed a new ink cartridge, cropped, and even put it on PSP to sharpen it and I had no luck. Here it is anyway.

Birth Record

Resized Birth Record

Sorry..but I tried.

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

Em

Maybe if you get as close to the document as possible (for clearity) and only photograph the section from the mothers name down to the word bambino. think

Do you think that would make it larger and improve the clearity? If it appears that it does, then upload that image to the site. Even if you have to shoot it in several sections to keep it clear, go for it. It never hurts to try! Wink

liviomoreno · Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Not sure what this means?

The following is a transcription of the document. (black is typed, red is handwritten)

Numero d’ordine ???

L’anno milleottocentosessanta il di Diciannove dal mese Aprile alle ore sedici avanti di Noi Carlo ??? sindaco ed ufficiale dello stato civile di Santelia provincia di Terra di Lavoro è comparsa Felicita Rossi di anni cinquanta di professione levatrice domiciliata in Santelia quale ci ha presentato un maschio secondo che abbiamo, ocularmente riconosciuso, ed ha dichiarato che lo stesso e’ nato da Giuseppa Fionda(??) di anni ventotto domiciliata in Santeliae da Domenico de Filippis marito della stessadi anni trenta di professione contadino domiciliato nelle ????? nel giorno diciannove dello stesso mese ore ??? nella casa di abitazione di essa dichiarante

La stessa ha inoltre dichiarato di dare al bambino il nome di Giovanbattista

La presentazione e dichiarazione anzidetta si e’ fatta alla presenza di Don Antonio de Maria di professione possidente regnicolo domicilato in Santelia e di Tommaso ?? di professione ??? regnicolo domicilato ivi testimoni intervenuti al presente atto, e da essa Sig. Felicita Rossi prodotti.
........

And this is the translation:

Number ???

In the year 1860 on day 19 of the month of April at 4pm before Us Carlo ??? Mayor and officer of the vital records of the community of Santelia Province of Terra di Lavoro appeared Felicita Rossi age 50 occupation midwife living in Santelia who has presented us a boy that we have visibly witnessed and she has declared that the same was born of Giuseppa Fionda(??) age 28 living in Santelia, and of Domenico de Filippis, her husband, age 30 living ????? on day 19 of the same month at ??? hours in the house where the informant is living.

The same has also declared that she has given the boy the name Giovanbattista.

The aforesaid presentation and declaration was made in the presence of Don Antonio de Maria occupation Land owner, citizen living in Santelia and of Tommaso ??? occupation ???, citizen living as above witnesses attending the present act, and provided by Mrs Felicita Rossi.
......

Emmy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 11, 2007 Posts: 1000 Location: Scotland

My apologies to everyone for all the bother I've given with this request but its been annoying me because I just couldnt work it out. Many Thanks to everyone for all the trouble they've taken to clear this up for me and Smile

I think perhaps I also owe an apology to 'Giuseppa and Domenico' for all the suspicious ideas I've had about them. Smile

Once again Many Many Thanks for all the help given.
kiss

Emmy

liviomoreno · Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Not sure what this means?

I hope that your quastions are now answered.
Wink