Translation for Tom

nuccia · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: Translation for Tom

Tom asked me to post this with hopes that someone could translate it.

Luca · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Anno Domini 1626 die X Martii
Mattias Pacella et Dianora de Paulo
a me D. Petro ... Archip(resbite)ro
Ecclesiae S(anc)tae Mariae S(anc)ti Sal(vato)ri coniun-
cti fuere in matrimonium, et cum
reperti fuere affines in 2° grado
a S(anc)ta Sede Apostolica sub volun-
tatem(!) Pont(...) Max(...) dispensatum
fuit; et quia iam sunt dies ...
... .... ... ... ... ... ...
... Sigismondo Gammeluri Thelesi-
no habita pre(se)ntia et a me su(pradict)o Ar-
chip(resbite)ro in Ecclesia S(anc)ti Sal(vato)ris implo-
ratis eorum consensu coram Ottavio
Pacello, Sal(vato)re Verotto, Belardino
Pallotta, Ottavio Rapuano, Joanne
Paulo Gaetano et aliis coniuncti
fuere ut sup(r)a, denunciationibus etiam
praemissis quar(um) una die p(rim)o d(ict)i men-
sis martii, alia die 7 festum S(anc)ti Thomae
Aquinatis, altera vero die 8 festum Do-
minicae et nullum impedimentum dela-
tum fuit ... in 2° grado affi(nita)tis
in quo dispensatum fuerat ut supra
Shocked

Questo è abbastanza complicato!! Prego uno dei nostri traduttori di
"volgere" in inglese la seguente traduzione maccheronica (e incompleta,
visto che diverse parole non sono riuscito a capirle).

L'anno del Signore 1626, il giorno 10 di Marzo.
Mattia Pacelli e Dianora di Paolo furono congiunti in matrimonio da me, Don Pietro ...,
Arciprete della Chiesa di Santa Maria di San Salvatore (Telesino), e siccome furono
trovati affini in 2° grado, furono dispensati dalla Santa Sede
Apostolica (traduzione NON letterale).
... ... ... (pezzo non comprensibile) ... avuta la presenza di
Vincenzo Gammelluri di Telesino da me Arciprete, nella Chiesa di San
Salvatore, richiesto il loro consenso e alla presenza di Ottavio Pacello,
Salvatore Verotto, Belardino Pallotta, Ottavio Rapuano, Giovanni Paolo
Gaetano ed altri furono uniti (in matrimonio) come sopra (detto), già
premesse le pubblicazioni di cui la prima fu il 1° del detto mese di marzo,
la seconda il giorno 7, festa di San Tommaso d'Aquino, e l'altra l'8, giorno
di Domenica, e nessun impedimento fu rivelato e già furono dispensati dal
2° grado di affinità come sopra (detto).

hide

Carole · Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Quote::

Luca says:
Questo è abbastanza complicato!! Prego uno dei nostri traduttori di
"volgere" in inglese la seguente traduzione maccheronica (e incompleta,
visto che diverse parole non sono riuscito a capirle).

L'anno del Signore 1626, il giorno 10 di Marzo.
Mattia Pacelli e Dianora di Paolo furono congiunti in matrimonio da me, Don Pietro ...,
Arciprete della Chiesa di Santa Maria di San Salvatore (Telesino), e siccome furono
trovati affini in 2° grado, furono dispensati dalla Santa Sede
Apostolica (traduzione NON letterale).
... ... ... (pezzo non comprensibile) ... avuta la presenza di
Vincenzo Gammelluri di Telesino da me Arciprete, nella Chiesa di San
Salvatore, richiesto il loro consenso e alla presenza di Ottavio Pacello,
Salvatore Verotto, Belardino Pallotta, Ottavio Rapuano, Giovanni Paolo
Gaetano ed altri furono uniti (in matrimonio) come sopra (detto), già
premesse le pubblicazioni di cui la prima fu il 1° del detto mese di marzo,
la seconda il giorno 7, festa di San Tommaso d'Aquino, e l'altra l'8, giorno
di Domenica, e nessun impedimento fu rivelato e già furono dispensati dal
2° grado di affinità come sopra (detto).

Translation:
Luca says:
This is quite complicated!! I ask our translators to turn the following made up language into English (it is incomplete seeing that I was unable to understand several words.)

The year of our Lord 1626, the 10th day of March.
Mattia Pacelli and Dianora of Paolo were joined in matrimony by me, Don Pietro...,
Dean of the Church of Santa Maria of San Salvatore (Telesino), and as they found some affinity in 2° level, favours were bestowed by the Holy Apostolic See (translation NOT literal).

... ... ... (incomprehensible piece) ... has the presence of Vincenzo Gammelluri of Telesino by me Dean, of the Church of San Salvatore, requested thier agreement and to the presence of Ottavio Pacello, Salvatore Verotto, Belardino Pallotta, Ottavio Rapuano, Giovanni Paolo
Gaetano and others were joined (in matrimony) as (stated) above, by then after a short preamble the publication of which the first was the 1° of the said month of March, the second on day 7, festival of San Tommaso d'Aquino, and the other the 8th, day of Sunday, and no impediment was found and by then the favours were bestowed from the 2° level of affinity as (said) above.

dragoni · Mem Joined: Oct 24, 2008 Posts: 33

thanks to each of you, i am eternally grateful. i could hardly read the document much less translate. so many abbreviations. btw, this is the marriage record for my 9th great grandfather, the oldest i have been able to locate through church records. i was hoping to find whether it contained information regarding his father, it does not appear to unless ottavia is his father which i won't be able to verify.

tom

Carole · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Reading it again it does seem to be what we know as reading of the banns prior to a wedding. This states that the wedding plans were announced three times, on the 1st March, then then on the 7th day and again on the 8th day (of Sunday), though I'm not sure if that means the 7th and 8th day of the month or the 7th day after the first announcement followed by another 8 days later.

There is a reference >HERE< from Trafford R. Cole regarding marriages and weddings and the following link (below) is a calendar for March 1626 which, I think, might lean towards the 'three week' theory.

>Calendar 1626<

liviomoreno · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Carole wrote:

Luca wrote:

... e siccome furono
trovati affini in 2° grado, furono dispensati dalla Santa Sede
Apostolica ...

... and as they found some affinity in 2° level, favours were bestowed by the Holy Apostolic See ...

Carole, let me reword Luca's sentence (according to my understanding):

...e siccome sono parenti di 2° grado, sono stati autorizzati dalla Santa Sede Apostolica...

which becomes:

...and since they were 2nd cousins they had the clearance from the Holy Apostolic See...

In fact, religious marriages between 2nd cousins are forbidden and you need a special authorization from the Pope (dispensa papale)...

That's great Livio... THANK YOU! kiss

Luca did say it was his 'maccheronata' language and to be honest the text totally confused me - I thought it was in Latin when it seems it was in fact in Maccheronese.....

Good job YOU understood it!

Luca · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Ciao Carole.
Secondo questo calendario perpetuo (dalla pagina che ti appare vai su "index", poi scegli "calendario e Pasqua" sulla sinistra): web.tiscali.it/gabriel...ovanna.htm l'8 Marzo 1626 era una Domenica. Ho avuto modo di usarlo altre volte e sembra essere molto preciso.

Luca

liviomoreno · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Luca wrote:

Ciao Carole.
Secondo questo calendario perpetuo (dalla pagina che ti appare vai su "index", poi scegli "calendario e Pasqua" sulla sinistra): web.tiscali.it/gabriel...ovanna.htm l'8 Marzo 1626 era una Domenica. Ho avuto modo di usarlo altre volte e sembra essere molto preciso.

Luca

Carole, you have 2 choices:

1 - Follow, step by step, the detailed instruction given by our Latin guru

2 - Click on this link http://web.tiscali.it/gabrieletalevi/calendario.htm

(the end result is always the same)

BTW I suggest to change Lucas's label from "Translator" to "Lating guru", or "Deciphrator"...

Cathy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 2681

liviomoreno wrote:

BTW I suggest to change Lucas's label from "Translator" to "Lating guru", or "Deciphrator"...

I like that! Or how about script specialist/Latin guru? Wink

I love it! Great job all of you. Your teamwork amazes me.
And Dragoni - congratulations on getting so far back! That's awesome!

liviomoreno · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

Carole aka liviomoreno wrote:

That's great Livio... THANK YOU! kiss

Luca did say it was his 'maccheronata' language and to be honest the text totally confused me - I thought it was in Latin when it seems it was in fact in Maccheronese.....

Good job YOU understood it!

This is the first time that I see an answer inserted directly in my own post! That's the power of technology adminpower

Carole · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

liviomoreno wrote:

Carole aka liviomoreno wrote:

That's great Livio... THANK YOU! kiss

Luca did say it was his 'maccheronata' language and to be honest the text totally confused me - I thought it was in Latin when it seems it was in fact in Maccheronese.....

Good job YOU understood it!

This is the first time that I see an answer inserted directly in my own post! That's the power of technology adminpower

Sorry about that Livio - I should have been using your post as a 'Quote' which I should have cut and pasted to a 'Reply'.

I must have had one of my C.R.A.F.T. moments. Embarassed

liviomoreno · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

dragoni · Mem Joined: Oct 24, 2008 Posts: 33

i was able to get so far back because of the help of others in this journey of three years. and the fact that my relatives seemed to like their hometown so much they didn't want to move for all of those generations. all i provided to the effort was my usual stubborness used to track them down. btw, with very little help from the relatives in that for 400 years they generally refused to follow the traditional naming pattern for first sons. they certainly made it more difficult. but then it wouldn't have been such a good challenge.

now it's on to the maternal italian side.

tom

Cathy · V.I.P. Joined: Jul 10, 2007 Posts: 2681

liviomoreno wrote:

Carole aka liviomoreno wrote:

That's great Livio... THANK YOU! kiss

Luca did say it was his 'maccheronata' language and to be honest the text totally confused me - I thought it was in Latin when it seems it was in fact in Maccheronese.....

Good job YOU understood it!

This is the first time that I see an answer inserted directly in my own post! That's the power of technology adminpower

Yikes!

Luca · Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Translation for Tom

liviomoreno wrote:

Carole, you have 2 choices:

1 - Follow, step by step, the detailed instruction given by our Latin guru

2 - Click on this link http://web.tiscali.it/gabrieletalevi/calendario.htm

(the end result is always the same)

Ma per quale caspita di motivo mi rindirizzava sulla pagina principale? Evil or Very Mad

Grazie Livio