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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Wow!!! That is an interesting document. Thanks for posting Luca and thanks so much for the translation Carole.

What does - begging colours - mean?

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Carole
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Well thank goodness you asked that Billie... I just went back to the original worksheet I was using and I've missed a whole paragraph from the end - so that will get done tomorrow. It's 1.30 am here now.

But 'begging colours' - well that caused me soooo much trouble as the Italian says 'ò mendicato colore' and whichever way I tried that was about the best I could come up with. 'mendicato colore' is not a phrase I have ever heard - so...... Crying or Very sad

Livio or Luca are bound to know!

Oh and BTW - THIS is an arquebus


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Thanks so much Carole and thanks for the photo. That's really cool. I hope Livio or Luca can let us know about "begging colors".

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Luca
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Sono riuscito a tovare questi due "incredibili" errori (almeno spero, sennò faccio pure una figura "barbina" Very Happy )

Carole wrote:


The Marriage Promise

... Domenico Nardi from the said Castello di Papigno, his
fellowcountry man, with who he subsequently ...

For the dowry then, and in the name of Dowry of Orsola for now the above mentioned Canzonetti couple will give, and assign together and for them to the above mentioned Domenico his future bride present and at the same time...


Per la storia del colore non riesco ad esserti d'aiuto. Era una formula di rito che usavano spesso i notai, ma non ho mai approfondto per stabilire bene cosa fosse. Faceva parte, comunque, di un formulario che assicurava l'acquirente (o, come in questo caso, chi doveva ricevere la dote) che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca.

Ciao e grazie Carole

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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

So it was important for the property to have no mortgage? I can see where that would be a benefit to Domenico Nardi.

No ipoteca importante? Beneficio per Domenico.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

OK - (with my apologies) here is the last paragraph that I somehow missed. I will now edit the original translation and add this.
Carole


From that dowry as established above, and assigned to the said Domenic now when it is assigned he will be content, and satisfied, and he will promise to maintain, and to keep for his future bride, and that will not diminish, and steadfast in the case of restitution , that is the marriage is dissolved he will promise to repay to who has reason in the world, and prepare, that which he has received in total, and in accordance with the municipal statutes of this city of Terni, and no other because it is like this.
And following the agreement, it is agreed as above the said Canzonetti couple have together equally , as above, built and assigned the dowry to Madalena their other daughter who is still a child of seven years established now for when she will be married the sum of one hundred scudos in Roman coins to take above the land with olive trees found in the afore mentioned territory, and property in Vocabolo la Stentella for the value of said one hundred scudos, to the married couple expecting and bordering from the beginning to the land of Pietro Paolo Pacelli, together with the land inherited from Mattia Porchetti, owned by Ipolito Erculei, from the side of the land of Giovanni Battista Fabrizi, except others(?).


[...]
Quae omnia §, alias §, de quibus§, quod §, prò quibus § [...]
Actum Interamnae in Archivio Apostolico praesentibus Archangelo Salvati filio quondam Francisci Josephi, et Augustino Pacelli filio quondam Francisci Mariae de Castro Papineae, testibus.
Thaddeus Dominicus Agostinangeli Notarus rogitus.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca said:
Per la storia del colore non riesco ad esserti d'aiuto. Era una formula di rito che usavano spesso i notai, ma non ho mai approfondto per stabilire bene cosa fosse. Faceva parte, comunque, di un formulario che assicurava l'acquirente (o, come in questo caso, chi doveva ricevere la dote) che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca.

For the story of the colours I really can't help. It was a ritual formula often used by notaries, but I have never gone into it further to establish just what it is. It was a part, however, of a questionnaire that ensured that the purchaser (or, as in this case, who was to receive the dowry) that the goods and chattels that were being assigned were freely availabile to the giver and there wasn't any mortgage on them.


Thank you Luca... Sorry about the two errors! Embarassed I really must pay more attention Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Carole wrote:

Thank you Luca... Sorry about the two errors! Embarassed I really must pay more attention Crying or Very sad

Avrai capito (senza dubbio) che scherzavo dicendo che avevi commesso due incredibili errori (si trattava di insignificanti sviste). Hai portato avanti una traduzione perfetta!
Grazie (come sempre)
Luca

Nota:
Aggiungo (oltre al fatto che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca) che il cedente era tenuto a rispettare l'accordo e non inventarsi false scuse per riavere indietro ciò che aveva ceduto o venduto (ed infatti mendicato dovrebbe significare "mendace" (cioè falso, ossia non doveva inventare falsi pretesti - il perché usavano la parola "colore" però non saprei dirlo)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Carole wrote:

Thank you Luca... Sorry about the two errors! Embarassed I really must pay more attention Crying or Very sad

Avrai capito (senza dubbio) che scherzavo dicendo che avevi commesso due incredibili errori (si trattava di insignificanti sviste). Hai portato avanti una traduzione perfetta!
Grazie (come sempre)
Luca

Nota:
Aggiungo (oltre al fatto che i beni che gli venivano assegnati erano nella piena disponibilità del cedente e non c'era su di essi alcuna ipoteca) che il cedente era tenuto a rispettare l'accordo e non inventarsi false scuse per riavere indietro ciò che aveva ceduto o venduto (ed infatti mendicato dovrebbe significare "mendace" (cioè falso, ossia non doveva inventare falsi pretesti - il perché usavano la parola "colore" però non saprei dirlo)

I will add (other than the fact that the goods that were assigned were the full responsibility of the giver and there was no mortgage on them) that the giver was held to respect the agreement and to not invent false excuses to have back that which had been given or sold and in fact mendicato should mean "mendace" (that is false, in other words he should not invent false pretexts - the reason they used the word "colore" I don't have an explanation.

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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Because I was so curious about - begging colors - I asked a friend of mine from Calabria, who is a published historian for these types of records - what this actually means. Here is her reply........

Hi Elizabeth,

It is exactly what I assumed - a dowry contract and its conditions. Now the word COLORE here does not refer to COLOR of painting, pigments and such.

The NOTAIO is using it as the plural of COLORO (bad ital.?) Thus, he is admonishing - THEY, THOSE, WHO - how to proceed in the case of being evicted from the land, etc.

Do you need the full text? When you said old document I go straight to the crusades! Bad!

So there is the answer. I hope this helps with the explanation.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

It is just questions like this think that move us into further research that makes genealogy so interesting and such a challenge.

How sad I feel that I have arrived so late in life and that I have lost all that time 'til now not even knowing that such things existed... But now I'm really getting into it and - I must admit - I'm enjoying every minute! giornale

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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

You do a fantastic job Carole!!!

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Luca
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Sorry Liz, I don't agree with your friend. I think the word is colore and not coloro, also if the meaning isn't that we can think (painting, pigments etc.).
Here is the pic (check the first line):



Luca
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BillieDeKid
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Hi Luca,

Here is the paragraph I sent her to look at......................

Here is the paragraph from the marriage promise.......the date of document is 1752.

Promettendo dd(ett)i coniugi Canzonetti in solidum li sud(ett)i terreni essere loro liberi, immuni, ed esenti da ogni, e qualunque peso, cenzo, canone, livello, servitù, cond(izio)ne, caducità, devoluz(ion)e fideicommisso purificato, ò da purificarsi, e da ogni, e qualunque altra cosa, che potesse impedire la p(rese)nte assegna, e costituz(ion)e di dote, quale promisero in solidum, come sopra, sempre, ed in perpetuo aver rata, grata, valida, e ferma, e contro non fare, dire, opporre, o venire sotto quals(ivogli)a pretesto, causa, ingegno, ò mendicato colore altrim(en)ti in caso contrario vollero esser tenuti dell’evizz(ion)e gen(eral)e, univer(sa)le, e par(tico)lare in ... de’ sud(ett)i terreni p(er) la sud(et)a somma di scudi cento da stendersi secondo lo stile della Curia Romana, ed à tutti i danni § de quali §.
Della qual dote come sopra costituita, ed assegnata il d(ett)o Domenico adesso p(er) quando [sarà assegnata] se ne chiamò contento, e sodisfatto, e quella promise mantenere, e conservare p(er) d(ett)a sua futura sposa, e quella non deteriorare, ed in caso di restituzione tanto costante, che sciolto il matrimonio promise restituirla à chi sarà di raggione nel modo, e forma, che l’ha ricevuta in tutto, e p(er) tutto in conformità dello statuto municipale di questa città di Terni, e non altrim(en)ti § perché così §.

Yes....not painting, pigments etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: New Type of Record Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Sorry Liz, I don't agree with your friend. I think the word is colore and not coloro, also if the meaning isn't that we can think (painting, pigments etc.).
Here is the pic (check the first line):



Luca

Well my view, for what it's worth on this is that the script here shows a clear 'e' at the end of the word 'colore'. Had it been an 'o' I would have been reading it as 'with them' and would have sought another context in which to place those three words.

But having said that, and taking into consideration the remainder of that particular sentence is it possible that this (below) is the context in which that word/phrase should be viewed? From 'De Mauro:

COLORE: 4 FO: apparenza, aspetto: gli avvenimenti raccontati hanno il c. della leggenda | verosimiglianza, credibilità: dare c. ad un imbroglio, ad una bugia, renderli credibili

Appearance, aspect: the happenings recounted have the appearance of legend/myth | likelyhood/probability, credibility: give credibility to a swindle/trick, to a lie, to render it believable.

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