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Community Forums › General › General Discussion Groups › Question about italian baptism documents

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Question about italian baptism documents
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Eleven
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:25 pm    Post subject: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I have a question..can anyone tell me what this is?

I have been indexing for the fhl, trento baptisms.

Most of these towns have only a few surnames, very often, you see the same surname for the husband and the wife (her maiden name, of course).

When I was indexing, I came across towns, that have two names as the last name...sometimes with a hyphen between them. Like this:

Rizza-Tessoro

When I first came across this, I didnt know if I should type in the second name...and what exactly was it? Its not the babys mothers maiden name. I dont know if its a town name..or where this name came from. I am guessing, because of all these people, having the same surname..and very often, they are using the same first names, this name was added as a sort of additional identification.

Oh, and few of the documents will contain the maiden name of the fathers mother. It isnt that name, either...or at least it didnt seem to be, on the few that I checked. If a surname was added in the spot for the fathers name, it is always the first name (Rizzo).

Anyway, when I was indexing...first, I thought the name should go there...with the surname. Then I took it out. Then I thought maybe, I should add this additional name with the first and middle names.

I finally decided to omit it. If a person is going to look for an ancestor, the last name, as they know it..is what they will be using. I also felt that the arbitrator could deal with putting it in..if it needed to be in.

Heh..so, now I am the arbitrator..and what I am finding..is..there is massive confusion with this second name. Some people are putting it in with the hyphen..even tho the instructions tell you..no punctuation. Other people are putting it in without the hyphen. Then, there are those who are sticking it in with the first name. And...last but not least, some are omitting it totally..like I was doing.

What I am noticing tho...the people with the least mistakes in the names, or anyplace else..are the ones omitting it.

When I did my first batches of arbitrating, I chose the person who omitted it as being correct.

I was going along my merry way..until tonight, when I noticed, I was getting pages, where both people had written it the same exact way, two names..without the hyphen and because they matched, there was no reason for me to correct it..that area..was not highlighted to correct.

So now, I am stumped.

I can email them..and ask..but the thing is..everybody should be doing the same thing..or they will end up with, some will have the double name and some wont. They really should have taken a look at some of these documents and added what to do, to their instructions.

Anyway..does anyone have any idea of what this second name is?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I think the locals always use both the names where a hyphen is involved. Here is why I think that. Tropea has a monument to their soldiers who died in WWI. You can view this picture here. In this picture you can see they put in both surnames even though it caused the names to go outside the edges of the plaque. I doubt they would have done that if it was not important. Another thing to consider - if they used just one name at some point which did they use? I beleive my great grandmother's full name is DeAloisa Scrugli (no hyphen). It was not on their birth acts, however, her sister Carmela did have the name Aloisa (not Scrugli) on her US death record. On the other hand DeAloisa seems to have been dropped sometime in the 1800's. So if you were indexing my family you would drop the Scrugli and I would never find them. I would use both names with the hyphen or without...

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Eleven
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I looked at your pix. I see what you mean. I never saw a double name on an italian record before..but, I never saw baptism records before this. The birth documents, for my towns have the baptisim record with it.

When I was doing the indexing and came across it..first I put it in..then took them all out. I was so undecided, because at first, I didnt know what the heck it was. Omitting them, didnt bother me because I knew someone else had to decide it it stayed in or out.

Where does that name come from..do you know? I can see why they tack it on...there are not a lot of surnames in these small towns...and probably even less first names.

I emailed the fhl and am waiting for them to respond. I also should have asked them about when they dont have the fathers surname in the spot for the father, what to do. I was and mostly everyone else is..giving the father the same surname as the child..unless of course, there is no father.

I recently did a few early births 17-1800 for some state.. I forget which, maybe missouri. In those project specific instructions they tell you not to use the fathers surname for the child. But, these trento records dont say a thing..so I guess everyone is doing the logic thing. Well..a few arent..they leave it blank.

The more I work with this indexing..the more of a miracle I think it is that we find anyone at all when looking..lol

Anyway...thanks Cathy. Being that I saw this now..I get the feeling they will tell me to add it. I had stopped arbitrating those and was doing the florida 1945 census instead.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I never saw double names either until I started working on the Tropea records. One thing I did notice was many of the double names I noticed in the marriage records were surnames of local nobility. Both parents were titled and the groom or bride used both surnames. I'm not sure what their birth acts say yet - I am not that deep into the births yet. I am not even sure it was just nobility that did this I just noticed a D. before the first name and finally figured out the D. was short for Duca or Ducessa. The same was true for other titles. C. = Conte, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

Ciao Cathy, and grazie for your information. I have been extracting the Trento Italy baptism records ever since the project began and had wondered about the hyphenated names. As of this week I have been elevated to being an 'arbitrator' for the project and am currently working on a batch where there are double surnames for all the baptisms. Some are hypenated, others are not. A family name website I just googled mentioned that in the small towns in the Trento region where the families intermarried so much, they added these second surnames to distinguish the different lines from each other. Given that information I think that I will include both names as long as they are hyphenated as the Surname when I arbitrate these records.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I hope I was able to understand well the question you posed.
I think you must not omit anything: when an index is available everyone will look at it and not at the whole register; if you omit something, that thing simply will not exist anymore!
I hope you can understand my maccheroni-english Wink

L.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

Luca, I understand what you mean..and I agree with you.

The FHL didnt respond yet, to me..but I was happy too see Terry here and now know, I am not the only one who was wondering what to do.

Like I said before, when I was just indexing, I didnt worry much because I knew, what I typed wasnt final..someone else would look and decide...but now, one of those people are me..lol

I suggested, in my email to the FHL that they should add some notation somewhere..either in their instructions or in the messages they send us thru the program every two weeks. Everyone should be doing the same thing, concerning these records.

Luca...your english is fine. I wish my italian was that good.

Oh..Terry...stick around...pleaseeeeeee. I was wishing for someone else working on these things...so I could ask, what they were doing.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I just wanted to mention, that I did write to the FHL indexing support. They asked me for the record batch number, which I sent, but before I even got a reply, I began using the two names. In the email, I sent along with the number (so they could go see a document with the double name), I told them the explanation that I got here, in this forum from Cathy and Terry. I told them I was now going to use the double names. I guess this all made sense to them, too...because they ok-ed that..and never got back to me after they looked at the documents, so I assume, using the double name was the correct thing to do.

Now..I have another question..but I need Terry. I am curious to know what the heck people are doing, when arbitrating..if one sheet is blank and the other is filled out. I dont even know how they are sending two different things to you. I shouldnt be getting a blank sheet as one, they should both be the same. I hate to have to write to them again..but, I am sure I will be seeing more of the same, on every type record.

Anyway, thanks everyone..for all of your info. You were all a big help to me.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

Just an update.

This trento project seems never ending. lol

And I was worried..when I was indexing..because I didnt have a total grasp of the language? You wouldnt believe the mistakes some of these people are making.

First, I think the FHL is shooting themselves in the foot..with this auto software. I told you guys, each field you type in (like first name, surname, name of mother and father) etc..holds the last thing you typed. If I typed Maria..under the mothers name..the next time I type an M there..maria automatically appears. But, if you needed margarita typed there..you just type over the maria. But..people are just leaving maria there. This software IS extremely helpful..but people have to "pay attention".

The next most common mistake is catarina/caterina, domenico/dominico. It looks to me, like whomever makes these type mistakes, cannot look at the screen while typing. They look..say the name..and spell it their way.

Next..comes those who want to show that they know how to spell something better than the priest..so they put in their own spellling...or, they have seen a name in a past record..and think that looks like this name..so they put in the name they saw before..rather than whats there now.

Then, there are those who think they are supposed to be translating..lol In the area of the childs name..if the baby wasnt named it will have NN. or in italian will say newborn, or figlia/figlio, or anonimo. We are supposed to put <blank> instead, they are writing no name, still born, some go as far as typing illigetimate or bastardo..lol

As you type, right next to the typing area..it tells you how and what to enter in this field. I dont think they read it..lol

Then..I am finding peculiar things that I have no idea where these people are getting it from. Strange names stuck in..from out of nowhere. Its not errors from skipping passed the auto typer. There was a child with two names..like Riccardo Antonio. One person had it right..the other had Luigi typed in parenthesis between them. I looked all over..at the name above..below..the parents. I dont know where this luigi came from..lol

I dont want anyone to think that I am doing a perfect job with no mistakes. I am not. I am doing a lot of good guessing..and sometimes, I figure out a name when a clearer copy comes up..only, its too late for me to go fix it..since the prior batch was already sent.

Sigh...well..I really can see why we have a tough time with our searches..but, I sincerely believe..if its out there..and you want it badly enough..you will find it..misspellings and all. I did.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

No question...but you can call me a nut. I just found triplets born in the trento baptism records in 1890!! And they all lived!! I find that amazing, because in doing these records, i have found so many babies who didnt make it..and twins who either one died or both. Finding this made me smile. OK..you can all tell me now, that this is making me nutty.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I understand perfectly! I found triplets too and was amazed. If I am not mistaken they were cousins of my grandfather. So many babies and young children died it made me so sad to wonder what these poor parents went through.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about italian baptism documents Reply with quote

I think a lot of these baptism records, where babies died...the babies werent full term. I also found one where the mother must have died too...because there was a notation in the mother section. I forget the exact term that was used (fu or morte)...but she was dead. I saw another one, where they baptised the baby while it was still inside the mother. Strange. I guess they knew the baby wouldnt live, or maybe it wasnt moving.

When I dd my research at the fhl, 16 years ago, I used to get really upset at the amount of babies and children that died. One mother could use the same name 3-4 times, before she got one that lived. They kept renaming the babies with the same name.

Anyway, I was really happy to see that these babies lived..2 boys and a girl.
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